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Family Fighter - FUN! ty Blizzard

Discuss pet battles, strategy and theorycrafting.
Q8e192
 
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Family Fighter - FUN! ty Blizzard

Postby Q8e192 » September 13th, 2017, 12:19 am

That was fun.
I think amongst all the PVE pet content, this was by far the best so far.
I really think Blizz did a fantastic job.
Amongst all the fights, my 2 favorite were Snozz Dragonkin and Gloamwing Aquatics.
What were your favorite fights?

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Barlenor
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Re: Family Fighter - FUN! ty Blizzard

Postby Barlenor » September 13th, 2017, 10:36 am

I agree, though some of the fights felt hopeless, it was very fun to finally figure out something that worked.

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Re: Family Fighter - FUN! ty Blizzard

Postby Sellys » September 13th, 2017, 4:17 pm

Too much RNG/too few successful options. But my opinion is somewhat coloured by crushing my soul on Foulclaw, Snozz vs Dragons, and Gloamwing vs Aquatics.

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Re: Family Fighter - FUN! ty Blizzard

Postby Q8e192 » September 13th, 2017, 4:50 pm

Sellys wrote:Too much RNG/too few successful options. But my opinion is somewhat coloured by crushing my soul on Foulclaw, Snozz vs Dragons, and Gloamwing vs Aquatics.


I think amongst all the fights Gloamwing vs Aquatics had the lowest success chance (16.67%)
Snozz vs Dragons is is roughly a 44% (0.66 * 2) chance
Someone even posted that they killed Snozz/Dragons on their first attempt with one of the strats I posted
https://www.wow-petguide.com/index.php?Strategy=1491
Foulclaw, I don't remember being that tough ... maybe just the Elemental/Foulclaw fight because I was missing a few "store" pets ... but then I think I created a (33% (0.5 * .666) success chance) with non-store pets
https://en.wow-petguide.com/index.php?Strategy=1344

Note that all the calculated % above do not take crits/darkness into consideration.
Hope you are still having fun with these pet battles. I sure did.

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Re: Family Fighter - FUN! ty Blizzard

Postby Digem » September 14th, 2017, 7:48 am

Sellys wrote:Too much RNG/too few successful options. But my opinion is somewhat coloured by crushing my soul on Foulclaw, Snozz vs Dragons, and Gloamwing vs Aquatics.



Yes it has rng but it was at least challenging and forced us to use combinations and moves outside the norm. Could it be better? Yes, but a step in the right direction in my opinion

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Re: Family Fighter - FUN! ty Blizzard

Postby Sawfty » September 14th, 2017, 1:02 pm

Digem wrote:
Sellys wrote:Too much RNG/too few successful options. But my opinion is somewhat coloured by crushing my soul on Foulclaw, Snozz vs Dragons, and Gloamwing vs Aquatics.



Yes it has rng but it was at least challenging and forced us to use combinations and moves outside the norm. Could it be better? Yes, but a step in the right direction in my opinion


I felt the same during the process, but I really enjoyed it afterward. Great challenge, interesting and fun, and still stayed relevant as a long-term achievement. Overall very well done!

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Re: Family Fighter - FUN! ty Blizzard

Postby Digem » September 15th, 2017, 5:56 am

Sawfty wrote:
Digem wrote:
Sellys wrote:Too much RNG/too few successful options. But my opinion is somewhat coloured by crushing my soul on Foulclaw, Snozz vs Dragons, and Gloamwing vs Aquatics.



Yes it has rng but it was at least challenging and forced us to use combinations and moves outside the norm. Could it be better? Yes, but a step in the right direction in my opinion


I felt the same during the process, but I really enjoyed it afterward. Great challenge, interesting and fun, and still stayed relevant as a long-term achievement. Overall very well done!



Exactly I don't know what people want? All I heard was the pet dungeons were too easy but now this too hard? Rng is the only way to make Pve pet battles more challenging. Yes, it can be annoying but it wasn't easy. I hope they keep going down this road and have less rng but still make it challenging

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Re: Family Fighter - FUN! ty Blizzard

Postby Silkenfire » September 16th, 2017, 12:57 am

I'm fine with a fight being challenging, but reducing it to RNG for freaking hours just makes me want to put a fist through the screen and cancel my account (after playing since 2004 with no breaks).

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Re: Family Fighter - FUN! ty Blizzard

Postby Digem » September 18th, 2017, 7:11 am

Silkenfire wrote:I'm fine with a fight being challenging, but reducing it to RNG for freaking hours just makes me want to put a fist through the screen and cancel my account (after playing since 2004 with no breaks).



Agreed rng is horrible and lazy/bad game design but that seems to be the only thing blizz has done to add any real challenge to it for now. Hopefully they keep working at it and come up with a better way to make it challenging but at least we are getting new content and that is way better than last expansion and our utter lack of content

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Re: Family Fighter - FUN! ty Blizzard

Postby Q8e192 » September 18th, 2017, 11:16 am

Silkenfire wrote:I'm fine with a fight being challenging, but reducing it to RNG for freaking hours just makes me want to put a fist through the screen and cancel my account (after playing since 2004 with no breaks).

In defense of Blizz. low RNG is a part of the game. Farming mounts and pets that have a < 1% drop rate isn't that uncommon in the WoW community.
Admittedly, this is the first time we seen strategies with RNG success rates of < 50% in pet battles and it probably came as a shocker to most, but I see this as a good thing. Is soloing a boss with a zandalari anklerender with a 100% success rate more fun or figuring out a strategy to a difficult boss in spite of the RNG more fun? I go with the latter.
So my new question/comment really is ... what is an acceptable success rate % of a strategy?
Is 5% considered too low? 10%? 15%? ... 50%?

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Re: Family Fighter - FUN! ty Blizzard

Postby Talmar » September 18th, 2017, 12:22 pm

In my opinion I think your success chance should be directly proportional to your collection.

Avid pet collectors with very large collections, including some of the rarer pets like the minfernal or unborn valkir, should be able to put together a team with a moveset to get a 75% success chance. And if you have rarer pets with the right breed etc should be able to get higher.

Moderate pet collectors that go after just the wild pets and an achievement here or there might net the pets necessary for a 50% success rate.

And those who nab a pet here or there and don't farm rares should have barely any chance at all.

This would be a good way to "reward" those who put significant effort into getting an amazing pet collection.

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Re: Family Fighter - FUN! ty Blizzard

Postby Q8e192 » September 18th, 2017, 5:51 pm

Talmar wrote:In my opinion I think your success chance should be directly proportional to your collection.

Avid pet collectors with very large collections, including some of the rarer pets like the minfernal or unborn valkir, should be able to put together a team with a moveset to get a 75% success chance. And if you have rarer pets with the right breed etc should be able to get higher.

Moderate pet collectors that go after just the wild pets and an achievement here or there might net the pets necessary for a 50% success rate.

And those who nab a pet here or there and don't farm rares should have barely any chance at all.

This would be a good way to "reward" those who put significant effort into getting an amazing pet collection.

Thx for sharing your thoughts. Much appreciated.
Agreed that success should be proportional to your collection. Other factors include the strategy/execution and the pet family you are using vs dueling against (i.e. aquatics vs flying is a tough one to win period)
Re: 75% ... I respect your input on that number. I personally think anything < 20% and >10% as a strat is acceptable for 20% of the fights ;)
Out of the 180 Argus pet battles (18*10), only a handful (*maybe* 5) have success rates strategies < 20% (assuming you are using the best strategy). On the flip side , there are also some fights, where you can solo or two-pet a boss too. So taking an average of all 180 Argus elite pet battles, I think the average success rate is close to 65%, which isn't too far off of your 75% statement.
The highest success rate being 100% (which applies to a few of the fights) and 16.67% to the lowest (Gloamwing/Aquatics)

*NOTE* my defn success % do not take crits into consideration (as crits / darkness can work both ways) ... also keep in mind that crits usually favor bosses more as they usually have a greater speed, so the calculation of success %, is a wee bit more complicated.

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Digem
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Re: Family Fighter - FUN! ty Blizzard

Postby Digem » September 19th, 2017, 12:52 pm

Q8e192 wrote:
Talmar wrote:In my opinion I think your success chance should be directly proportional to your collection.

Avid pet collectors with very large collections, including some of the rarer pets like the minfernal or unborn valkir, should be able to put together a team with a moveset to get a 75% success chance. And if you have rarer pets with the right breed etc should be able to get higher.

Moderate pet collectors that go after just the wild pets and an achievement here or there might net the pets necessary for a 50% success rate.

And those who nab a pet here or there and don't farm rares should have barely any chance at all.

This would be a good way to "reward" those who put significant effort into getting an amazing pet collection.

Thx for sharing your thoughts. Much appreciated.
Agreed that success should be proportional to your collection. Other factors include the strategy/execution and the pet family you are using vs dueling against (i.e. aquatics vs flying is a tough one to win period)
Re: 75% ... I respect your input on that number. I personally think anything < 20% and >10% as a strat is acceptable for 20% of the fights ;)
Out of the 180 Argus pet battles (18*10), only a handful (*maybe* 5) have success rates strategies < 20% (assuming you are using the best strategy). On the flip side , there are also some fights, where you can solo or two-pet a boss too. So taking an average of all 180 Argus elite pet battles, I think the average success rate is close to 65%, which isn't too far off of your 75% statement.
The highest success rate being 100% (which applies to a few of the fights) and 16.67% to the lowest (Gloamwing/Aquatics)

*NOTE* my defn success % do not take crits into consideration (as crits / darkness can work both ways) ... also keep in mind that crits usually favor bosses more as they usually have a greater speed, so the calculation of success %, is a wee bit more complicated.



This could be interesting or just have aquatics with some sort of feign death or shield like all other classes have and it would of been a lot less rng. I didn't realize that aquatics don't have some sort of dodge that goes first like every other class does until doing this achievement . It isn't a coincidence that aquatic that has none, dragon that has one that has shield and elemental that has only a few were the toughest classes to do this on. This achievement opened my eyes how the moves are not evenly spread out.

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Re: Family Fighter - FUN! ty Blizzard

Postby Q8e192 » September 19th, 2017, 1:50 pm

Digem wrote:
Q8e192 wrote:
Talmar wrote:In my opinion I think your success chance should be directly proportional to your collection.

Avid pet collectors with very large collections, including some of the rarer pets like the minfernal or unborn valkir, should be able to put together a team with a moveset to get a 75% success chance. And if you have rarer pets with the right breed etc should be able to get higher.

Moderate pet collectors that go after just the wild pets and an achievement here or there might net the pets necessary for a 50% success rate.

And those who nab a pet here or there and don't farm rares should have barely any chance at all.

This would be a good way to "reward" those who put significant effort into getting an amazing pet collection.

Thx for sharing your thoughts. Much appreciated.
Agreed that success should be proportional to your collection. Other factors include the strategy/execution and the pet family you are using vs dueling against (i.e. aquatics vs flying is a tough one to win period)
Re: 75% ... I respect your input on that number. I personally think anything < 20% and >10% as a strat is acceptable for 20% of the fights ;)
Out of the 180 Argus pet battles (18*10), only a handful (*maybe* 5) have success rates strategies < 20% (assuming you are using the best strategy). On the flip side , there are also some fights, where you can solo or two-pet a boss too. So taking an average of all 180 Argus elite pet battles, I think the average success rate is close to 65%, which isn't too far off of your 75% statement.
The highest success rate being 100% (which applies to a few of the fights) and 16.67% to the lowest (Gloamwing/Aquatics)

*NOTE* my defn success % do not take crits into consideration (as crits / darkness can work both ways) ... also keep in mind that crits usually favor bosses more as they usually have a greater speed, so the calculation of success %, is a wee bit more complicated.



This could be interesting or just have aquatics with some sort of feign death or shield like all other classes have and it would of been a lot less rng. I didn't realize that aquatics don't have some sort of dodge that goes first like every other class does until doing this achievement . It isn't a coincidence that aquatic that has none, dragon that has one that has shield and elemental that has only a few were the toughest classes to do this on. This achievement opened my eyes how the moves are not evenly spread out.


Hi Digem,

Agreed that Aquatics is a gimped family for PVE.
Re: a dodge attack that goes first for aquatics: https://www.warcraftpets.com/wow-pets/a ... warturtle/
And believe me ... I tried to use the above pet with Gloamwing, but that pet doesn't do enough dmg.
The problem isn't with Gloamwing ... the problem is with the aquatics family not having as many abilities as other families or that the abilities are just clumped into one pet (Gulp Froglet)
I think the Dragonkin family is OK ... originally there was a lot of noise about the Snozz/Dragonkin fight having a very low success % (requires a crit which is 5%), but that was just the problem with the strategy. I believe there are strats in the Snozz/Dragonkin fight with success rates in the +40% now.
Also agree the this achievement how the moves are not evenly spread out .. Undead abilities are OP compared to Aquatics.

If any Blizz developers are reading this ... leave Gloamwing alone (its not a problem with the boss), but add more aquatic pets with new abilities. Ghost Shark was good, but we still need more.

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Digem
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Re: Family Fighter - FUN! ty Blizzard

Postby Digem » September 21st, 2017, 7:28 am

Hi Digem,

Agreed that Aquatics is a gimped family for PVE.
Re: a dodge attack that goes first for aquatics: https://www.warcraftpets.com/wow-pets/a ... warturtle/
And believe me ... I tried to use the above pet with Gloamwing, but that pet doesn't do enough dmg.
The problem isn't with Gloamwing ... the problem is with the aquatics family not having as many abilities as other families or that the abilities are just clumped into one pet (Gulp Froglet)
I think the Dragonkin family is OK ... originally there was a lot of noise about the Snozz/Dragonkin fight having a very low success % (requires a crit which is 5%), but that was just the problem with the strategy. I believe there are strats in the Snozz/Dragonkin fight with success rates in the +40% now.
Also agree the this achievement how the moves are not evenly spread out .. Undead abilities are OP compared to Aquatics.

If any Blizz developers are reading this ... leave Gloamwing alone (its not a problem with the boss), but add more aquatic pets with new abilities. Ghost Shark was good, but we still need more.[/quote]


Exactly it is the moves that pet classes have or don’t have that make this achievement a rng fest. Undead and mechanicals have the best and most diverse pet moves and not surprisingly it is easy to do this achievement on those two classes. Just adjust the moves on classes and this wouldn’t be such a problem

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Re: Family Fighter - FUN! ty Blizzard

Postby Kalium » September 21st, 2017, 8:04 am

I like moves that do something similar but not necessarily a copy/paste of an existing move... like Frolick
vs Dodge / Phase Shift / Evanescence. These kind of differences create an unique feel and experience for each pet family. Otherwise all pet PvE is finding one combination that works and how to recreate it using a different family. That's not very inspiring.

I felt the RNG was a terrible way to get past certain encounters. I have a decent collection and I like being about to work out a strat that has an almost guaranteed win rate. When it comes down to the fact that only one frog out of all the aquatics has a "chance" to get past a fight... it feels bad.

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Digem
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Re: Family Fighter - FUN! ty Blizzard

Postby Digem » September 21st, 2017, 10:31 am

Kalium wrote:I like moves that do something similar but not necessarily a copy/paste of an existing move... like Frolick
vs Dodge / Phase Shift / Evanescence. These kind of differences create an unique feel and experience for each pet family. Otherwise all pet PvE is finding one combination that works and how to recreate it using a different family. That's not very inspiring.

I felt the RNG was a terrible way to get past certain encounters. I have a decent collection and I like being about to work out a strat that has an almost guaranteed win rate. When it comes down to the fact that only one frog out of all the aquatics has a "chance" to get past a fight... it feels bad.



Agreed don’t just copy moves make them have a similar effect but have the moves still have some uquiness to each class. Poor aquatics for example don’t have a go first dodge shield right. So make one called like water shield. They also are lacking in a stampede/flock type move to help in these fights were the “boss” pet has that built in shield. Something else that hurts the aquatics.
It was just shocking how limited and lacking the aquatics move base is. I didn’t realize it till going for this achievement

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Re: Family Fighter - FUN! ty Blizzard

Postby Peanutty » September 21st, 2017, 5:37 pm

Digem wrote:It was just shocking how limited and lacking the aquatics move base is. I didn’t realize it till going for this achievement


Definitely... I thought they weren't a bad family at all (they certainly wreck elementals) until trying to think of strategies with only 1 pet having a dodge first in the Young Mutant Warturtle and no stampede type ability except for Gulp Froglet having Swarm (instead of Swarm of Flies!). On top of that Swarm removes Corpse Explosion as an option.

Would really love to see aquatics with more options other than aquatic attacks. I can only Rip/Blood in the Water so much...


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