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Some Thoughts on Pets' Future

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Uduwudu
 
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Some Thoughts on Pets' Future

Postby Uduwudu » May 5th, 2017, 8:15 am

Hi,

(I'll apply it to Pets a bit further down)

Came across this, and I wanted to post it because the information that was given/shared was incorrect, and it must have been perceived by a kid, rather than a seasoned player, who knew better, and had some history with the game. On one of the boards there was a comment that the programmers at Blizzard were really happy with the process they created to get you to be able to fly in Legion. And the discussion was about how so many players were happy, they did not have to pay for the Flying, and instead played for it.

This was distorted so badly it's not funny. Blizzard, a while back, and as far back as Pandaria and the like, decided that paying for flying was not a good idea, and that you had to earn it ... why? EASY. Many folks were simply going to the internet, spent $20 bux and got the 10K they needed and got the Flying. Blizzard set a mark on stopping that, and they did ... by the time Legion came out, the whole thing was so huge that it was difficult to get to fly, and some of us did and others did not, and there is not, ANYWHERE, a really good track record of the number and (even) a sequencing of the quests needed to that you could achieve your Glorious Campaign. for example, my neighbor, got stuck as a Hunter, and it took me over 3 weeks to find what he was missing, mostly because almost ALL the ADDONS out there, now, are merely repeating what is already available in different colors ... long is the Quest addon, that listed all the quests in a zone, and you could see the ones you had already done, in order to find out what is missing for you to finish the sequence, and get the Achievement (Icecrown's number of achievements was huge and difficult to track!) ... and now, it was virtually impossible because some of the folks doing these addons, did not have the foresight to realize how these could help ... at all!

My only issue with the kid's comment, was that he thought the programmer was being up front and honest about the whole situation, when the history of the ability to fly, suggests completely otherwise, and Blizzard finally tied it up 100% to your playing ability and time. If you are dedicated enough, you will fly ... if you are a casual player ... you are not going to guy it! End of story. And the quote from the programmer was so obviously sidestepping the chance to get caught in that story ... let me just say that it was not Steinbeck, or Hemingway! It was Andy Warhol, drunk!

I believe that the same type of thing will eventually happen to ALL pets in Pet Battles ... you will have to play for them, and it might hurt the market for them, as less and less pets are available for the Auction House, even though more folks are Pet Battling than ever.

So get ready to battle more ... I doubt that we will be seeing many more pets that can be sold in the AH in the future. My only thought at this time is ... is Blizzard considering killing the AH in the future? And my thoughts are that it might not kill it, but it will hinder it severely.

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Vakeetah
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Re: Some Thoughts on Pets' Future

Postby Vakeetah » May 5th, 2017, 9:30 am

There's hardly anything prophetic here, it's already happening. If you think about it, the "play more" paradigm already applies - Look at Order Hall pets (DK in particular), or achievements like Poor Unfortunate Souls or Family Familiar. Those do require some commitment and time investment, certainly more than flying. And as far as "buying things for a lot of money from a vendor" goes, which is closest to the former requirement for flying, look at Celestial Calf.
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Milotha
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Re: Some Thoughts on Pets' Future

Postby Milotha » May 5th, 2017, 2:13 pm

I agree that they are removing the AH as a source of pet farming. It is now down to doing the achievements or getting the reputation yourself. This is somewhat more frustrating as they added rng pets with low drop rates that could not be sold. I'm not liking that. Those with poor luck end up punished more than others.

There were some pets to buy for gold off the reputation vendors this time. There was the 1million gold pet :( Knockoff Blingtron and one raid pet could be sold on AH.

Mostly it is up to you to do the stuff or get lucky or both. I just can't run 10 mains in this expansion. Too rate limited. You really have to pick what pets you are going to go for and which ones you won't.
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Paladance
 
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Re: Some Thoughts on Pets' Future

Postby Paladance » May 5th, 2017, 2:28 pm

While surely each company has guidelines that are regularly presented to the employees, I don't think there is a specific mindset that everyone could follow wholeheartedly. I don't want to say that there are camps of some sort that watch out of each other with a constant vigilance -- rather the other thing, that there is no person who is supposed or able to cover 100% of the features.
Now, in Legion, some achievement-related pets were wrongly assigned a tradeable flag and it took pretty long until it was addressed. There still have been being added pets and other quirks that can be obtained pretty easily -- some even too easily for my taste -- to not make any list let's say that there belongs almost any pet with an expected AH price below 500g. :P

The mounts however, on the other hand…

What I can see more is an assumption -- on the blue side -- that each player is ready to eventually focus on every aspect of the decorative items collecting, whether these are pets, mounts, toys or transmogs, because not the type of item would be important, but other details, e.g. theme: someone wanting to explore the fire motifs would create a mage/shaman/warlock, mount several available creatures, summon often companions as Searing Scorchling or Sunfire Kaliri, collect all bonfires, etc. I'm not saying that this approach is right or not -- I'm against reducing pets to a pre-MoP state but other than that, each to their own -- but I try to look for a possible explanation.
I guess that this would have been an outcome of statistics coming from other games such as Diablo, HotS or Hearthstone, whose business model is indeed shifted towards impacting a player by more direct means, to say it politely, and basing several features on single phenomena. An understandable need, but not necessarily the best exploration and conclusions. ;)
Last edited by Paladance on May 5th, 2017, 3:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Some Thoughts on Pets' Future

Postby Hobbitpolitics » May 5th, 2017, 3:11 pm

Im the kind of pet battler/collector that doesn't buy or trade pets at all. My rule is to have everything in my collection collected by my own accord from drops. Yes this means there is a huge load of pets I won't ever have and yes it also means that I spend ages farming for something I can buy for 4 k off AH. I just like having stuff as "my own" originally, not from someone elses effort and RNG. So this wouldn't bother me at all. :)

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Re: Some Thoughts on Pets' Future

Postby Shashos » May 5th, 2017, 10:58 pm

I simply can't run my monk, DK and rogue through the entire Class Hall stuff, part 1 and 2, and in the case of the DK, get all three weapons maxed for those pets. I've tried. My rogue is sitting at 104 and I fear that's where she's going to stay. My DK and monk... I can't play them. I don't like the changes. I don't enjoy how they play. So making myself go through all that is not going to occur, at least not this expansion.

If I try to take any one of those classes into the necessary group content to finish off those questlines, I'll end up being kicked for being bad. I'm really frustrated and saddened by that, but it is what it is. Those pets will be added to the not collecting filter and I'll just hope other really neat pets are forthcoming from the new pet battle dungeons. :)

What I find seriously grinding my gears is that the classes I do like playing, my hunter, and my pallie... No pets. It's like I can't win for losing. :x

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Re: Some Thoughts on Pets' Future

Postby Uduwudu » May 7th, 2017, 5:58 am

I am a bit on the weird side ... I doubt I will play this game full time, like I used to, and the only thing I have been able to enjoy the past couple of years has benn the Pet Battles and related material.

So that meant that flying was going to be really hard to finish off ... but since Part 1 was almost all done, it was easier than I thought and not as frustrating, and all I needed to get to was the faction with the Legion, more than anything else. Luckily I was doing a Shaman as main, anyhoodle, and no complaints there.

The Class Hall thing, I think is done by many different folks, even though 2/3'rds of the quests are almost all the same, just in different color. Honestly, I did not expect to get a pet related to my class, which I have a tendency to think is a bit weird ... so we all get a doggie that looks the same, just a different color and has the same abilities as the worst pet in your collection? Not worth it ... and if it comes it does, and if doesn't, no loss or tears on my part. Oh wait ... the girls get a cat, not a doggie ... this way things are not so testosterone enhanced as this game comes off half the time!

What is weird and bothersome, is taking on the 3rd weapon, and then having to top it off, until all the artifact bits are filled ... and at the end, you supposedly get something ... a kick in the butt, not a Pet! Luckily the Shaman has a giveaway pet done fairly early (if they have not changed it), but I am seeing if it is worth topping off my Mage ... I'm kinda tired of the squishyness and the mobs in my eyes, ears, nose and butt ... specially 2 or 3, and you can't move or add more buggers to the whole thing.

But my hunter, and my neighbor (plays a Hunter main), does not have a pet off it. And he just finished things off this week and is now flying. So, no pet for him!

I think that disparity is scary for many folks ... that's not to say that the Class Hall Pet should be done at the same spot as everyone else ... let's say ... finish topping off the 2nd weapon (the artifact stuff is easy to get!) and then you have one battle and you gain the pet. Something similar would be fair, and I am not sure that anyone would get bothered for it, but how about a Druid ... I have to do 4 weapons ... and still have nothing to show for it? Not me ... I will top off healing and balance ... forget the rest!

As for the call of buying something or not, for me, the only pets left to get are the ones in the AH that list over 6 or 7K ... and in most cases they are way too far down to be able to get it done ... like I need to park a character in Sporeggar and keep at it, until I can't stand the Naga anymore! Might just be easier to buy it, but so far I have not.

Not sure that Blizzard can address the flying thing or the Pet thing properly, without making a commitment to how much one plays (SPECIALLY when their own folks DON'T play!) ... used to be the harder you did it, the better reward it was ... but that is no longer true anymore and has not been for some time, and I think the Pet situation is still being evaluated ... now I have to make time to go do the Pet stuff in Timeless Isle and then the stupid Pet Dungeon! I hate being "forced" to do something!

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Re: Some Thoughts on Pets' Future

Postby Harpooha » May 7th, 2017, 12:00 pm

Comparing unlocking flying to pet collecting is a real apples and oranges thing.

Although most players don't want to admit it, flying makes large portions of the game trivial. You can simply fly around, swoop down on your intended target and bypass a lot of the obstacles that were set up for you. So many people play this game and there are a ton of guides for just about every quest. Short of structuring quests like the Darkmoon races, it's the only way to keep content from being devoured in a matter of days.

The only pets that have to be "earned" are a few class hall pets. The vast majority are easily available or hidden behind RNG. Albino Buzzard finally dropped for me yesterday after doing the daily for what seemed like forever. But as long as you don't feel the need to have every pet now, I suspect that backtracking and collecting the class hall pets will be easy enough after the xpac is done.

Everyone has their red line. I would much rather work for pets in this game than have the cross promotional pets. I'm not interested in Starcraft or Hots. And I'm not going to buy or play those games to get a pet. /shrug

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Re: Some Thoughts on Pets' Future

Postby Uduwudu » May 7th, 2017, 2:15 pm

Harpooha wrote:Comparing unlocking flying to pet collecting is a real apples and oranges thing.

Although most players don't want to admit it, flying makes large portions of the game trivial. You can simply fly around, swoop down on your intended target and bypass a lot of the obstacles that were set up for you. So many people play this game and there are a ton of guides for just about every quest.
...


I disagree. They are both following a path that leads to not allowing any players to buy much of anything, up to and including the gear, potions and elixirs and many other items, that used to be very normal to find in the AH. Now, these are so heavy in the burden to get done, that you almost can not afford to be giving these away or sharing them with any one but your secondary characters.

Again, I am not in total disagreement with the process. There is a side of it that is right, the full time and those that play more, will get to fly, and the part timers will have a hard time doing so. Those that play more, will get the benefits and various Pets ... those that can't ... won't!

Simple economics!

Sadly, this is the same process that killed EQ way back when, when it decided it was going to feed the folks that were hardcore gamers, and ignore the rest of the players, many of those that had families and work to deal with and homework that was piling up, if not house cleaning. That, essentially meant that a bunch of players were frozen out of the chance to advance in the game, and eventually, the number of hardcore players will diminish, because another game came up and was better ... well, for now at least, most games out there are really poor by comparison, but they said the same thing towards the 5th year of EQ and on the 6th year, WoW showed up, and EQ began falling apart, with many of its well known players and folks went to work at Blizzard.

To maintain a large number of players, you have to make sure that the hardcores and the part timers, stick around and pay for the game ... but not allowing these part timers to have a chance at flying, and then various Pets, because they simply do not have the time to play that much to get 1436 quests done (so to speak!), then you have, effectively, shut out a sizeable portion of your folks that can play online ... start counting the days before things go south, and one of the next expansions fails miserably and Blizzard's only possible solution is to fire 42 programmers that were involved in it!

And then TRY to get folks back ... which more than likely won't happen in large quantities ... most of us, by then, will say done that ... ciao baby! As would you!

The solution, has to be ALL INCLUSIVE ... not EXCLUSIVE ... of many players that do not play as much as Blizzard wants you to. It's almost like they are banking on your sticking around because your girlfriend can get herself a cute pet from the Shop Store ... and not give a darn about the rest of the game. And you know, that this is not likely to happen, and if it does is strictly a minority ... and yes, that pet is quite good looking and I bought one for my grandmother, and she loves it, specially the color!

So, if some pets are, then, in the AH, so what? And the same for upgraded and better gear, almost all of which has been removed from the AH for the past 4 to 5 years ... when before, the players dominated the AH with gear, not Blizzard, making it impossible for you to "gain" ... from the AH ... which is the real issue ... takes away those farmers, that really created some bad issues for the past several years. However, that could easily be solved with an ability to only be able to get one of them per account ... so if you sell it ... you're done ... but no ... they have to punish everyone else that can't play enough to gain anything! Which is quite wrong!

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Re: Some Thoughts on Pets' Future

Postby Mehetabel » May 8th, 2017, 6:01 am

Uduwudu wrote:If you are dedicated enough, you will fly ... if you are a casual player ... you are not going to guy it!

Are you actually saying that flying is hard to get in Legion? That's rubbish. Time-consuming maybe but certainly easy enough for anyone to get, even casual players.

As far as pets go, I am GLAD that they have added pets that are hard to get/require working towards! The class pets are fantastic as I love a challenge and a goal and they've given me that for sure. I'm pretty hardcore as pet collecting goes and I will do anything that is required to get all the pets. This game SHOULD BE play to win and not buy to win. I'm the same as Hobbitpolitics above, in that I seldom buy pets off the AH, even though I can afford to. I don't feel I've earned them that way.

tldr: I like the direction Blizz have gone with flying and I'm happy that pets are going the same way.
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Re: Some Thoughts on Pets' Future

Postby Nagini » May 8th, 2017, 7:58 am

The AH is and continues to be an integral part of the game. While i can follow the OP's train of thought up to a point, I think it's odd to conclude from some minor changes in availability of items (pets, in this case) that clearly they're thinking of altering or removing the whole system. Throughout the history of WoW, there have been items that are available only to people lucky enough to find them themselves (BoP). Just look at many mounts, or all those burning crusade recipes that drop BoP and thus require you to run instances yourselves. The only reason there may be some confusion recently is that a few pets that were BoE/cageable were reverted into not being tradeable, and this was mostly a bug-fix because achievementpets are not intended to be bought.

I understand that, as a casual player, the idea of completing some of these achievements seems like a daunting task. However, I feel like blizzard actually put in a lot of effort making most of the conent accessible to all kinds of players (I'm not saying everyone will see -all-the classhall stories, but you'll see your mains, at least, and get that mount). The class hall quests take time, that's true, but they are even made (with time-gated quests and class hall missions) so that they shouldn't be completed in one marathon session. Just playing a handful of hours a week or even month should keep you progressing through the world and eventually towards flying. I personally thought that the current achievements required for flying are almost too easy, but thats my own two cents.
Blizzard has been kind of back and forth about the whole flying thing, i agree that they should be more clear on that. But flying just makes content so easy, just think of all the treasures that require some platforming, or nooks and crannies that wouldnt be discovered if we had just zoomed over them in the sky. The whole reason they put in the achievements, is so that at least on one of your toons you should experience the zone as intended, and then on alts you can just zoom over it and be efficient. That's literally all there is to the achievement, and i don't think that's too much to ask for a feature that is so convenient, but not required for the completion of anything.

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Re: Some Thoughts on Pets' Future

Postby Uduwudu » May 8th, 2017, 7:51 pm

Nagini wrote:...
I understand that, as a casual player, the idea of completing some of these achievements seems like a daunting task. However, I feel like Blizzard actually put in a lot of effort making most of the content accessible to all kinds of players (I'm not saying everyone will see -all-the class hall stories, but you'll see your mains, at least, and get that mount). The class hall quests take time, that's true, but they are even made (with time-gated quests and class hall missions) so that they shouldn't be completed in one marathon session. Just playing a handful of hours a week or even month should keep you progressing through the world and eventually towards flying. I personally thought that the current achievements required for flying are almost too easy, but that's my own two cents.
...


I, personally, do not mind that after all the hard part of the work, that I can fly, and take my other characters up fairly well ... the sad part for me, is that a similar achievement, does not exist for Pets and I'm not convinced that the pets that we can get from the GrandBumdeBlahBlahReservationoftheWailingFoot is worth the whole hassle at all ... compared to Flying which is a nice bonus to the whole playing experience.

The whole flying thing for Legion is not bad, if you were a reasonable player previously and you played enough to get almost the Part 1 completely finished ... just like I was missing just Saberstalker faction, and done. But if you, as a casual player, did not even bother to look at factions and some small benefits (one pet there for you!), because your time was limited, then you lost out.

The question is, do you want to lose that paying player or not. If you do, eventually your numbers drop ... and you either raise the price to cover, or admit that ... the game has had its best days, and now it will suffer the pains and contortions of death.

The comparison between Flying and the acquisition of Pets, have, BOTH, undergone changes that I think are going to cause major issues down the line, but it may be a mute story ... if that is already on the way to happening, and we, as usual, are looking at another side of things.

I am not saying, in any way, that we have to have better, and stronger pets, since the Battlemasters we are playing are getting tougher, but somewhere along the way, they will have to stop giving us pets that have exactly the same qualities as the pets we got 5 or 6 years ago, and they continue to have the same bad stats and abilities ... what do I give a cahoot about my Shammie Class Hall Idiot Pet, that is useless? Why would you or I even bother chasing something that is worthless, unless you and I had become so callous and ignorant of the whole game, that the only thing that excites our gonads is if we have 954 pets and be the number one player amidst millions with that many unique pets .... change the number as you will.

The flying part, I will not complaint about. But its history shows a very scary bunch of changes that merely suggests that purchasing of flying is over ... period ... purchasing your playing time is the issue here ... and it looks like they will do this for the Pets as well, with only one problem ... the "new" pets are crap, and they are not even making a single list of top 20 pets, and their usability is next to minimum ... except that they are cute and the girlfriend wants one? That might make the game fun for one person or two ... but in the end ... how are the pets improving or changing? They aren't.

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Re: Some Thoughts on Pets' Future

Postby Noel » May 18th, 2017, 4:32 pm

I hope they continue to allow the AH for pets that are locked behind RNG....Knockoff Blingtron comes to mind! I'm fine with making me play to get pets as long as there's a light at the end of the tunnel...if its infinite RNG then I'm not happy.

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Re: Some Thoughts on Pets' Future

Postby Digem » May 19th, 2017, 9:22 am

Wow this Op's agenda is amazing. While yes some of the pets are a pain or hard to get, looking at you dk pets and pvp pets. And would be nice if they could be sold on the ah for the buyer and also for the seller willing to put in the work. In no way does this mean they are getting rid of the ah. In fact your whole theory is flawed by the simple fact one can "buy" gold from blizzard thru the tokens now. If we have nothing to buy then we won't need the gold. And then blizzard misses out on the extra money from the coins. If anything blizz wants us to buy those coins as it is more money for them. What they have done here is how blizz thinks they will keep us busy and have content and not have long content droughts like wod. This new way of getting pets and rng, like eye from dh/warlock for example, is content in blizz's eye plain and simple .


Also in no way shape or form is a casual player not going to be able to get flying. It might take them longer but should be expected from a casual player. But what is needed to fly is things anyone that plays the game should eventually do. Doing the quests to see the story and exploring isn't hard at all. And again is a flawed theory as a casual player in the past by being casual wouldn't have the gold for flying and being casual wouldn't spend real life money on it. Either due to being casual it isn't that big of a priority or have the real life disposable cash. I know many a fellow casual guildie this was the case for and never got faster than the level 60 flying and didn't fly in expansions like mop. Heck most like it that they can "earn" it now.

Nice try but you are wrong here and have missed what blizz is doing here comes completely. What you have missed is the fact blizz is now considering rng drops and long grinds as content. And that I can agree is not always great if they keep pushing it farther and farther.


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