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Over-use of comps in PVP battles killing interest

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Coif
 
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Over-use of comps in PVP battles killing interest

Postby Coif » January 28th, 2017, 11:17 pm

There have always been OP battle-pet comps, but people who use them are making pvp stagnant. I could use the same comp as everyone else but that would just be boring. I could build a comp to beat the over-used comp teams, but that would also be boring. Why can't we give the several hundred other battle-pets some love?

I'm talking to you, fiendish imp / haunt users (whether that is ghastly kid or valkyr). Or the wicked soul comp. I usually see about 2 or 3 different teams out there with no variation. I don't want to use those pets because I have so many others, why rely on an I win button. Just not very fun or creative.

What do you guys think? Why can't we mix it up and make battle pets fun again?

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Re: Over-use of comps in PVP battles killing interest

Postby Glenwood » January 29th, 2017, 10:05 am

I agree. It's really bad for me with the current state of my meta. I've literally been battling the same player for weeks. And by that I understand the avatars are standardized. I literally mean they have the same comps and renamed pets, often spelling out short and insulting phrases. This player will only use the same comps such as Wicked Soul/Teroclaw or Sunny Day teams that require very specific counters to beat. I truly wish Blizzard would expand the pool of players in each meta, or combine metas so that players don't constantly battle each other.

But, during the occasional times where I go up against some fresh blood, I will always queue with my fun, but synergistic teams. However, escalation is normal. Losing consistently is no fun, especially to teams that clearly outmatch you. So, the normal thing to do is to put together a team that is slightly stronger with fewer counters. Eventually, you find yourself going up against Teroclaws, Wicked Souls, Imps and Bone Serpents. I always try to use fun teams and when the matches get to the point where we are using only top tier pets, I call it quits and come back later.

I will say this: I never use the Teroclaw Hatchling. My hatred of that pet burns with the fire of a thousand suns.

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Ranok
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Re: Over-use of comps in PVP battles killing interest

Postby Ranok » January 29th, 2017, 8:19 pm

We're dealing with human nature here, and anyone that hasn't turned off Trade Chat becomes quickly aware that there's awful lot of jerks playing this game. There are folks who aren't into pet battles for the intellectual challenge, they're either chasing some achievement or get off on high win rate no matter how they do it. The most current meta team is always well publicized in forums so they just need to grab those pets.

Unfortunately there's no handicapping system for pet PvP like there is in Arenas, no way to keep newbies from being matched up with pros. Lots of players I've chatted with tried out pet PvP for a day or two and got so disgusted they've never tried it since. This makes for a Catch 22 for the devs, they need to have a lot of participants to match up players based on win history, otherwise queue times become unacceptable. And I can't imagine even trying to design matchups based on makeup of teams.

My solution was to just stop doing pet PvP. It wasn't much fun anymore.

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Gráinne
 
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Re: Over-use of comps in PVP battles killing interest

Postby Gráinne » January 29th, 2017, 10:10 pm

It is much, much better now than it was during the reign of Graves and the Evul Undead (feat. MPD). I give the devs a lot of credit for a careful, craftsmanlike rebalancing and refocusing. One or two of the changes were maybe not ideal, but they solved the big problem.

I recorded 400 battles during the Graves meta, and 20 pets accounted for half of everything I faced:

Bone Serpent 110
Graves 86
MPD 57
Weebomination 35
FoA 34
Iron Starlette 28
Valk 27
Chrominius 25
Ghastly Kid 23
Anubisath Idol 21
Foss. Hatch. 19
Lil' Bling 18
Alpine Foxling 15
PWS 15
Teroclaw Hatchling 14
Fiendish Imp 14
Hopling 13
Frostwolf Ghostpup 12
Crusher 12
Rabbit 11
EPW 11

Thing is, although the queue is much more varied, I have barely played since then. I've added 100 or so wins in almost 4 months, so 30 matches a month maybe? I do my 10 wins quest most(?) weeks. One a day on average sounds about right. But that's not because of the meta.

When I do play nowadays I meet all sorts of teams. I saw one cute one this week, of Cerulean Moth with Lightning, Bone Serpent with Lift-Off!, Clockwork Gnome. Loved it!

I used to dream of a system in which we had to choose pets from a randomly-assigned list to prevent people running the same teams again and again. I still think that would be interesting, but now I don't feel that's the main problem any more. I'd like to see more focus on advancement of some kind, more interesting goals, more people in the queue.

The problem of meeting the exact same teams is probably in large part due to the relatively few players who ever do play.

An improvement on the reward for the weekly 10 would be a start. Also maybe some interesting reward for each 100 wins. And maybe a bonus for every pet you used on your team whose name began with some random letter that changed each week. :) A public score table of wins? Even something simple like a satisfying animation when you win a battle might help.

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Nagini
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Re: Over-use of comps in PVP battles killing interest

Postby Nagini » January 30th, 2017, 3:45 am

I personally try to do the 10 pvp wins for the weekly each week, and depending on my mood I use my favorite Scourged whelpling + Clockwork gnome, with another pet of my fancy (usually an undead counter of some kind), or, if I just want my quick wins, I go for a Graves meta. Not superclassy, I know, but at least its not a sunny day stalling team.

While I can see how fixing the current situation would be difficult for Blizzard (rankings in pet PvP? Restrictions?), I feel like they are at least partially responsable for the situation we are in. I am primarily an achievement hunter, and the achievements there are for pet PvP count only one thing: Wins. Not only that, but a ridiculous amount (250, 1000, 5000(!)) of them. Furthermore, all rewards for petpvp are given only, again, for -wins- giving little to no incentive to try new quirky teams in pet PvP. If anything, the current set up for petPvP punishes most use of unusual teams. In my own experience, I'm happy to see teams that I've not seen before, not for the variety, but because with few exceptions, experimental teams mean easy wins.

Rather then negative enforcement of the current meta, perhaps with a little positive enforcement we could see a big improvement in our petPvP opponents. Think achievements such as family familliar (using three elementals etc in say, 10 wins?), potential rewards for a loss (lesser or at a reduced rate, perhaps, like in actual PvP) or simply incentives to get more people back into pet PvP, like what happens during the weekly sign of the critter.

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Re: Over-use of comps in PVP battles killing interest

Postby Glenwood » January 30th, 2017, 4:35 am

Gráinne wrote:It is much, much better now than it was during the reign of Graves and the Evul Undead (feat. MPD). I give the devs a lot of credit for a careful, craftsmanlike rebalancing and refocusing. One or two of the changes were maybe not ideal, but they solved the big problem.


One round cooldown on ramp up moves...ugh. I'm looking at you frog kiss. They should have made it like grinding gears.

As for the meta, I don't mind going up against a lot of the same comps as much as truly going up against the same toxic player. Although it's extra satisfying to beat a team whose pet names spell out "Just Quit Now," I personally would rather go up against someone else who is legitimately trying to enjoy pet battles than a pet battle troll. Combine the metas, please.

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Gráinne
 
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Re: Over-use of comps in PVP battles killing interest

Postby Gráinne » January 30th, 2017, 12:12 pm

Glenwood wrote:One round cooldown on ramp up moves...ugh. I'm looking at you frog kiss.

Yeah, that was exactly what I was thinking of when I mentioned changes that were not ideal.

So what would I like to see? More reasons to PvP, and especially more short-term reasons. More people in the queue. More variety. Fewer disheartening experiences.

In bullet points:

- A better - and more reliable - victory/loss experience. Quite a number of times, I just get a "Battle Finished" message, even when I win. Even the "You Won" message is underwhelming. A good animation and sound would be nice.

- Multiple PvP quests per week, with variations.
-- Win 10 battles. (Current quest.)
-- Kill 10 opponent pets in PvP. (Less disheartening for beginners.)
-- Kill 20 opponent pets in PvP. (Less disheartening for beginners.)
-- Win 5 battles using only pets that begin with the letter "R" (or "B", or "E" ... - random choice)
-- Win 5 battles in which one of your pets is randomly downscaled to White quality.
-- Any other variations you can think of?

- New rewards
-- a 0.5% chance for a PvP battle to reward a cageable pet with a PvP theme.
-- a 0.5% chance for a PvP battle to reward a stone that rerolls a pet's breed to another existing breed of that pet.
-- Any other rewards you can think of? AP/OR/Gold aren't out of the question. A mount?

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Glenwood
 
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Re: Over-use of comps in PVP battles killing interest

Postby Glenwood » January 30th, 2017, 2:10 pm

Gráinne wrote:
- A better - and more reliable - victory/loss experience. Quite a number of times, I just get a "Battle Finished" message, even when I win. Even the "You Won" message is underwhelming. A good animation and sound would be nice.

- Multiple PvP quests per week, with variations.
-- Win 10 battles. (Current quest.)
-- Kill 10 opponent pets in PvP. (Less disheartening for beginners.)
-- Kill 20 opponent pets in PvP. (Less disheartening for beginners.)
-- Win 5 battles using only pets that begin with the letter "R" (or "B", or "E" ... - random choice)
-- Win 5 battles in which one of your pets is randomly downscaled to White quality.
-- Any other variations you can think of?

- New rewards
-- a 0.5% chance for a PvP battle to reward a cageable pet with a PvP theme.
-- a 0.5% chance for a PvP battle to reward a stone that rerolls a pet's breed to another existing breed of that pet.
-- Any other rewards you can think of? AP/OR/Gold aren't out of the question. A mount?


I love the pet drop idea. That would flood the meta with collectors! I also like the kill 10/20 pets idea. It doesn't depend on victories. This should also get some new battlers in the meta as they need to learn. Sometimes the learning curve is a bit steep, especially with a limited number of rare level 25 pets.

I think simply expanding the meta would only make a larger pool of the same teams. Perhaps a tournament queue like arenas with extra awards would be a good idea. Try-hards (please don't take offense to this term. I am simply describing the players would only play their Wicked Soul/Teroclaw teams) would get their forum for their pro teams while casual players can actually enjoy a less-competitive meta for some decent rewards.

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Biscuit
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Re: Over-use of comps in PVP battles killing interest

Postby Biscuit » February 1st, 2017, 9:15 pm

Copied from someone on the Blizzard pet forums:

"Albeit the reward is rather lackluster, I feel that Family Familiar, as a whole, was very much a success with the pet community. Kept us busy, gave us a reasonable goal - perfect.

My idea is a simple one: copy & paste the achievement and slap the acronym of PVP at the end.

Win 10 PVP pet battles with 3 critters
Win 10 PVP pet battles with 3 dragons
Etc

That's 100 PVP victories total.
(With another pet reward obviously)
Totally surmountable even from a newbies perspective.

Yes, there will be some lame try-hards out there farming wins off of these people, but that would be the case regardless.
And this would undoubtedly throw some spice into the queue without a doubt even bringing back old PVPers who have nothing to play for anymore.

Sure, working on your "win 10 battles with 3 mechanicals" achievement and running into someone working on their 3 elemental achievement won't be fun, but that's honestly a worst-case scenario.

Wouldn't take much effort on Blizzards part at all and I'm struggling to think of any drawbacks."

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Kendrah
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Re: Over-use of comps in PVP battles killing interest

Postby Kendrah » February 8th, 2017, 11:43 pm

Coif wrote:What do you guys think? Why can't we mix it up and make battle pets fun again?


I've been PVP pet battling this week for the weekly. I haven't done a ton since MoP really. MoP really burned me out on pet battle PVP. Anyway, I've seen a lot of haunt teams but they're never made up the same and, well, I don't understand the fuss. They've been really easy to beat. :lol:

From my experience, this isn't anything like how bad it was back in MoP when you only saw one team. Any MoP pvp'ers here? Remember the Valk/DAH team? That was literally all you saw. The third pet didn't matter and you couldn't run any other teams, other than ones that would fight against this (and 8 times out of 10 you still lost.)

I've been finding if I build a team around an idea then they're easy to blow out of the water. And that's always fun. :lol: My first attempt at an AOE team (one I used during MoP) ate a valk, ws, tero team and AOE was nerfed so it's possible. If you run enough teams that eat this comp, people will stop playing them.

I'm sorry. I don't mean to be argumentative or condescending. Please don't take this that way. I just remember the way it was -- when you literally had no chance against the all star team. Now you have a chance. They may seen stale but they're being played because they work. Work at finding ways to eat those teams and people will stop playing them. I've been trying to remember teams I ran during MoP and they've all been killing haunt teams. All these new fangled teams/pets are no match for the hardcore teams of yorn (when you were fighting against the one truly OP team of all time.)

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Re: Over-use of comps in PVP battles killing interest

Postby Glenwood » February 9th, 2017, 1:38 am

Kendrah wrote:
I've been finding if I build a team around an idea then they're easy to blow out of the water. And that's always fun.

I'm sorry. I don't mean to be argumentative or condescending. Please don't take this that way. I just remember the way it was -- when you literally had no chance against the all star team. Now you have a chance. They may seen stale but they're being played because they work. Work at finding ways to eat those teams and people will stop playing them.


It's not so much not being able to beat them. It's just that they're so pervasive, I'm getting bored running my Foxes. The S/S Fox with crouch and dazzling dance can be faster than the Teroclaw Hatchling. I wish more people would run themed teams around an idea or some sort of synergy other than Haunt/Dodge. The one that's been frustrating is the Haunt/Dodge with Shieldstorm from the Blizzcon pet. I literally have to run very specific counters.

I would also like to see Consume Corpse nerfed. Not the heal itself, but being able to repeatedly use it on the same pet because of Haunt.

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Re: Over-use of comps in PVP battles killing interest

Postby Kendrah » February 9th, 2017, 2:22 am

Glenwood wrote:It's just that they're so pervasive, I'm getting bored running my Foxes


Don't use the same pets then. I've been changing them up too. These teams aren't hard to beat. They're susceptible to darkness teams, freeze teams, aoe teams, etc. If you're really annoyed, you can try a sunshine team. You might lose but you'll've wasted like an hour of that guy's time. :lol:

I understand where you're coming from. Valk/DAH teams turned me off pet battle pvp for a long time. I got my 250 win achievement during MoP and was like NEVER AGAIN. I'm just saying you have a wide range of options to deal with these teams. Perhaps we should make a thread of teams that kill these annoying pvp teams so it's at least interesting for those who hate those teams?

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Re: Over-use of comps in PVP battles killing interest

Postby Paladance » February 9th, 2017, 7:23 am

Biscuit wrote:Copied from someone on the Blizzard pet forums:

"Albeit the reward is rather lackluster, I feel that Family Familiar, as a whole, was very much a success with the pet community. Kept us busy, gave us a reasonable goal - perfect.

My idea is a simple one: copy & paste the achievement and slap the acronym of PVP at the end.

Win 10 PVP pet battles with 3 critters
Win 10 PVP pet battles with 3 dragons
Etc

And then everyone, just by coincidence, tries to complete the 3x undead part… ;)

I just wanted to remind you that there's Sign of the Critter week, so there are a bit more people in the queue.

And erm, sorry for running Nightshade/Dust Bunny. Except that one person with Lil' XT that kept using Heartbroken.
I haven't thought that one can be so silly to basically help their opponent. :)
Image

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Re: Over-use of comps in PVP battles killing interest

Postby Digem » February 9th, 2017, 11:36 am

Kendrah wrote:
Coif wrote:What do you guys think? Why can't we mix it up and make battle pets fun again?


I've been PVP pet battling this week for the weekly. I haven't done a ton since MoP really. MoP really burned me out on pet battle PVP. Anyway, I've seen a lot of haunt teams but they're never made up the same and, well, I don't understand the fuss. They've been really easy to beat. :lol:

From my experience, this isn't anything like how bad it was back in MoP when you only saw one team. Any MoP pvp'ers here? Remember the Valk/DAH team? That was literally all you saw. The third pet didn't matter and you couldn't run any other teams, other than ones that would fight against this (and 8 times out of 10 you still lost.)

I've been finding if I build a team around an idea then they're easy to blow out of the water. And that's always fun. :lol: My first attempt at an AOE team (one I used during MoP) ate a valk, ws, tero team and AOE was nerfed so it's possible. If you run enough teams that eat this comp, people will stop playing them.

I'm sorry. I don't mean to be argumentative or condescending. Please don't take this that way. I just remember the way it was -- when you literally had no chance against the all star team. Now you have a chance. They may seen stale but they're being played because they work. Work at finding ways to eat those teams and people will stop playing them. I've been trying to remember teams I ran during MoP and they've all been killing haunt teams. All these new fangled teams/pets are no match for the hardcore teams of yorn (when you were fighting against the one truly OP team of all time.)



See it's just human nature for people to use things that make something easier.
Heck I have pvp'd since the beginning and remember when the anbinsol idol shield reflected the damage dodged back at the pet that attacked making them op monsters for awhile.
Then it was the scourge of the dinohorns and their stun locking pets.
Then it was sunlight stall teams where the other person wouldn't choose thier moves till the time was near up stalling even more and that is when one had 30 seconds each move with no diminishing time for stallers.

Yet I still persevered and have 5000 plus pvp pet wins.
Their will always be an op team of the moment. Remember though every team has a counter and if a lot are using the op team of the moment it makes it easier to beat them.

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Re: Over-use of comps in PVP battles killing interest

Postby Biscuit » February 10th, 2017, 5:50 pm

Paladance wrote:
Biscuit wrote:Copied from someone on the Blizzard pet forums:

"Albeit the reward is rather lackluster, I feel that Family Familiar, as a whole, was very much a success with the pet community. Kept us busy, gave us a reasonable goal - perfect.

My idea is a simple one: copy & paste the achievement and slap the acronym of PVP at the end.

Win 10 PVP pet battles with 3 critters
Win 10 PVP pet battles with 3 dragons
Etc

And then everyone, just by coincidence, tries to complete the 3x undead part… ;)

I just wanted to remind you that there's Sign of the Critter week, so there are a bit more people in the queue.

And erm, sorry for running Nightshade/Dust Bunny. Except that one person with Lil' XT that kept using Heartbroken.
I haven't thought that one can be so silly to basically help their opponent. :)


Hahaha I have no idea what any of this means.
I think Pala had a stroke, guys.
Someone go make sure he's okay. :p

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Biscuit
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Re: Over-use of comps in PVP battles killing interest

Postby Biscuit » February 10th, 2017, 5:55 pm

Very, very rarely does a pet only have ONE counter.
Example being Teroclaws - emperor crabs, alpine foxlings and wyrmy tunkins all /flex on that silly bird with little to no problems.
My point is, even if you're not in the mood to lose/experiment and just want 5 wins and move on, you can put some thought and variety into the counter teams you're using.

And I'd love to hear more about these "old school" teams that beat up on the current meta.

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Re: Over-use of comps in PVP battles killing interest

Postby Wootzy » February 11th, 2017, 5:56 am

Hey guys, the Shimmering Aquafly is another excellent Teroclaw counter. Try it. ;)
(I use the P/S breed with 305 speed, Alpha Strike, Healing Stream and Dodge).
Seems obvious to pair it with an aquatic, but you better bring a third pet to handle dragons.

Old school Clonedance with Emperor (or Left Shark :P ) still does fairly well in the current meta.
Another old team I still like using is Nightshade, Bones, Fox. And the combo Frostwolf/Frostfur. I'm sure there's more when I think about it after my coffee. :)
Last edited by Wootzy on February 11th, 2017, 6:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Over-use of comps in PVP battles killing interest

Postby Wootzy » February 11th, 2017, 6:15 am

[double post] oops..

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Re: Over-use of comps in PVP battles killing interest

Postby Gráinne » February 11th, 2017, 9:43 pm

Wootzy wrote:Hey guys, the Shimmering Aquafly is another excellent Teroclaw counter. Try it. ;)
(I use the P/S breed with 305 speed, Alpha Strike, Healing Stream and Dodge).
Seems obvious to pair it with an aquatic, but you better bring a third pet to handle dragons.

I'm partial to the 264-speed Power Junglebeak or Axebeak. Don't need to pair it with anything. Kills 99.9% of all known Teroclaws (and a lot of other things too. :) ).

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Re: Over-use of comps in PVP battles killing interest

Postby Wootzy » February 12th, 2017, 4:07 am

Gráinne wrote:
Wootzy wrote:Hey guys, the Shimmering Aquafly is another excellent Teroclaw counter. Try it. ;)
(I use the P/S breed with 305 speed, Alpha Strike, Healing Stream and Dodge).
Seems obvious to pair it with an aquatic, but you better bring a third pet to handle dragons.

I'm partial to the 264-speed Power Junglebeak or Axebeak. Don't need to pair it with anything. Kills 99.9% of all known Teroclaws (and a lot of other things too. :) ).


For sure the junglebeak is a nice birdy, but it doesn't have a two-round-dodge. Go head to head against the aquafly and you will most likely lose. Same goes for a slower crow, I know. :mrgreen:
Besides, it's always fun to try something new.

I am all for sharing counters to OP teams/pets, let's hear it folks.

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