The most powerful PVP team : 244 Valk/341 Snake/325 Qiraji

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Re: The most powerful PVP team : 244 Valk/341 Snake/325 Qira

Post by 3wd » January 21st, 2014, 11:20 am

Avalee wrote:Alpine Foxling kit (2,1,2) would do very good against such a team. It can do between 1000 to 1500 damage to the valkyr in the first 2 rounds. When the snakes uses Blind, I will just use the speed upgrade or shields.
Sure it won't survive with all those dots, but my second pet (probably a Kovok with 1,2,2) will easily kill the snake and the remainder of the valkyr.
the problem with the fox is this : if you attack the valk in the first round, you will be almost doomed.

Yes, you can get off for about 650 damage on the valk, but without the dance, you will be for sure kick stun by the guardling.

Then when you are facing the snake, the snake won't even need to blind you, the snake can just use poison frang and kill you on puncture on the next round.

Sure, your rest 2 pets will have the speed buff, but you will be losing your fox while on my side only did 650 damage to the valk and maybe 300 more to my snake.

I will take my chance with this against your remaining 2 pets.

In fact, if you are playing a fox, you will be better off just to go dancing in the first round.

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Re: The most powerful PVP team : 244 Valk/341 Snake/325 Qira

Post by 3wd » January 21st, 2014, 11:32 am

Se5s wrote:i'm sure someone's already pointed this out, but it's the 341 death adder + val'kyr that's strong. the third pet can literally just be a rabbit to avoid moves until the val'kyr does its thing and the death adder gets it's cd's back, or a magical crawdad to heal the death adder so it can fight a little longer. in fact i'm sure either of those will beat the guardling as well as have the same win/loss ratio.
The difference between the guardling and other avoidance pet is this :

- there is no chance for your opponent to attack you during that 4 rounds if their speed is under 325 (which most pets in this game doesn't have) and you will be still able to get a puncture for about 560 free damage after that.

You use a rabbit, a netherwhelp, or whatever, you will give lots of chances for your opponent to do something else.

OK, you start out with a valk, huant. and then what are you doing to do? get your snake out and use blind? and then get your rabbit out, and then use dodge?

rabbit :
round 1, valk huant
round 2, snake blind
round 3, rabbit out
round 4, rabbit avoidance
round 5, rabbit attack
how much damage you get get? close to 1000 maybe

guardling :
round 1, valk huant
round 2, guardling stun
round 3, snake out
round 4, snake blind
round 5, puncture
how much damage you get get? close to 1300

and more importantly, by using a guardling, round 2 & 3, your opponent can not do anything. He can not go underground, can not fly, can not use shield, can not heal, can not use delay damage.

This is the difference.

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Re: The most powerful PVP team : 244 Valk/341 Snake/325 Qira

Post by 3wd » January 21st, 2014, 11:41 am

Other than the rotation and control issue, as I mentioned earlier, the guardling also give you another weapon that other avoidance pet does not have - the sandstorm.

On paper, sandstorm does not work well with dots - which both the valk and the snake will use.

However, there are many scenario will need you to use sandstorm and actually it will benefit you.

Such as if your opponent will have a strong mech team or will utilize the lightning weather, you can use sandstorm to change that and at least kill their weather change and let 5 rounds pass to call your valk or snake back up.

You can use sandstorm to counter the imp in the backrow, and more importantly, you need sandstorm to counter the aqua pets to some extend.

Guardling's role in this team is the quarterback, she will be playing the controlling role, when to stun, when to attack and when to change the weather, she can do it all.

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Re: The most powerful PVP team : 244 Valk/341 Snake/325 Qira

Post by Yamum » January 21st, 2014, 12:43 pm

There's no argument that this is not a strong team, but, as others have pointed out, having the #2 and #3 pets in the game is simply by definition a strong team. However, it is an interesting topic nonetheless and I'd like to see a few challengers step up for some duels.

BTW, I was enjoying the text-based PvP pet battles, please continute. :P

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Re: The most powerful PVP team : 244 Valk/341 Snake/325 Qira

Post by Avalee » January 21st, 2014, 4:07 pm

3wd wrote:Sure, your rest 2 pets will have the speed buff, but you will be losing your fox while on my side only did 650 damage to the valk and maybe 300 more to my snake.
No the fox is strong against undead. And it's faster than the valkyr so it can do 650 damage TWICE (more if it crits). So when the valkyr does its death thing, the fox is still full health but the valkyr only has around 500 health left. When the snake does blind, I do shields and I'm pretty sure my fox can do at least two attacks before it dies.

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Re: The most powerful PVP team : 244 Valk/341 Snake/325 Qira

Post by 3wd » January 21st, 2014, 5:41 pm

Avalee wrote:
3wd wrote:Sure, your rest 2 pets will have the speed buff, but you will be losing your fox while on my side only did 650 damage to the valk and maybe 300 more to my snake.
No the fox is strong against undead. And it's faster than the valkyr so it can do 650 damage TWICE (more if it crits). So when the valkyr does its death thing, the fox is still full health but the valkyr only has around 500 health left. When the snake does blind, I do shields and I'm pretty sure my fox can do at least two attacks before it dies.
A fox kit has 1465 or 1481 HP.

Lets play it out.

round 1 :
fox use flurry : assuming you are doing the full hit of 600 damage
valk use huant, 156 dmg

round 2 :
fox stay (none of the fox kit has 325 speed)
guardling kick and stun
fox take another 156 dmg

round 3 :
fox stun
snake up
fox take another 156 dmg

round 4 :
fox shield? or dance?
snake fang 210 initial dmg

* if fox shield, then take another 35 dot dmg + 78 huant dmg, after this round, fox has taken 791 dmg, he will have max 690 HP left

* if fox dance, then take full 70 dot dmg + 156 dmg, after this round, fox will be taken 904 dmg, he will have 577 hp left.

Round 5
fox either will be :

1. 690 HP left, shield on
2. 577 HP left, speed on
my snake? full HP

if 1, fox shield on, I will blind here. the dot will run another 113 dmg. assume fox will use speed.
if 2, fox speed on, I will use puncture here, if fox will use flurry, I will probably get hit around worse 500+ dmg but fox will be dead by puncture, if fox will use shield, I use puncture will only do 280 dmg but the dot still will run another 113 dmg.

round 6 :

carry on from about option 1, fox now has 577 HP, shield on, speed on, blind on. snake will do puncture, 280 dmg plus another 35 dot, fox will have 262 HP left. snake still full HP, next round I switch back to guardling.

option 2, fox if use shield in last round, he will be having 184 HP left, snake has full HP, this round I just switch to guardling.

round 7, fox get a free hit, but weak against human.

round 8, fox will die.

So at worst, my valk get hit by around 600-650 dmg, maybe guardling 400-500 dmg, snake in full HP, but your team has the speed buff now for 5-6 more rounds.

I will get my valk out to get through 4-5 round and use guardling to stall 1-2 more rounds and I should still able to finish you will my full snake at the end.

Looks good to me.

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Re: The most powerful PVP team : 244 Valk/341 Snake/325 Qira

Post by Vek » January 21st, 2014, 5:51 pm

Can I have some of your non-switching opponents in my Battlegroup? Come to think of it, that would be less interesting. Keep up the theory crafting though since I love the team composition threads. Too few of them as is.

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Re: The most powerful PVP team : 244 Valk/341 Snake/325 Qira

Post by Alfonzzo » January 21st, 2014, 6:58 pm

Emperor Crab (2,2,1) > Val'kyr and Adder.

The concentration of valk teams in my battlegroup were what got me my Trainer title.

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Re: The most powerful PVP team : 244 Valk/341 Snake/325 Qira

Post by Nagflar » January 21st, 2014, 9:57 pm

AGree this is super strong team. even beat my valk,Blighthawk,Deathadder.

try it using PP emperor crab. but the Qiraji just too strong , sandtrom+damage to aqua, stun , crush. damn i wish i got SS qiraji now .

any one can tell me how to counter this team . been facing this team a lot recently

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Re: The most powerful PVP team : 244 Valk/341 Snake/325 Qira

Post by 3wd » January 21st, 2014, 9:58 pm

Vek wrote:Can I have some of your non-switching opponents in my Battlegroup? Come to think of it, that would be less interesting. Keep up the theory crafting though since I love the team composition threads. Too few of them as is.
To be honest with you,

even though this is a very powerful team, but the overall PVP level in my group is pretty high and I normally will not keep using the same team for more than 3 games without changing.

the thing is, when my opponent will find a good counter team for this team I mentioned, that will be a brutal battle and could take 40-50 rounds to end. It's not that fun especially when you have a higher chance to lose.

I normally will rotate 3-4 teams during the pvp que, this way I will have a much higher win/loss rate and the games become more enjoyable for me.

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Re: The most powerful PVP team : 244 Valk/341 Snake/325 Qira

Post by 3wd » January 21st, 2014, 10:04 pm

Nagflar wrote:AGree this is super strong team. even beat my valk,Blighthawk,Deathadder.

try it using PP emperor crab. but the Qiraji just too strong , sandtrom+damage to aqua, stun , crush. damn i wish i got SS qiraji now .

any one can tell me how to counter this team . been facing this team a lot recently

First, you need to think about an Aqua pet, best counter for this will be the crawdad. Then that's not enough, team him up with a valk preferably. Now use your crawdad to soak the damage from your opponent's valk, and the key is this : bait your opponent's guardling to use the kick the crawdad, when that happens, call up your valk to face the guardling, now you are talking because she has no where to go, use COD, if its on the guardling, that hurts tons, if she will switch to the snake, great also.

on next round, try huant on the snake, if he does not blind you, then his snake will be done, if he blind you, just switch and get something out. eventually his snake will still eat the COD.

repeat the same and watch your opponent when to use the kick is the key here.

enjoy.

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Re: The most powerful PVP team : 244 Valk/341 Snake/325 Qira

Post by 3wd » January 21st, 2014, 10:06 pm

Nagflar wrote:AGree this is super strong team. even beat my valk,Blighthawk,Deathadder.

try it using PP emperor crab. but the Qiraji just too strong , sandtrom+damage to aqua, stun , crush. damn i wish i got SS qiraji now .

any one can tell me how to counter this team . been facing this team a lot recently

another way to counter this team is to use miner.

use that mech bot with 325 dmg, 260 speed that can lay mine and has a reduced dmg shield, combo it with another nuke pet (think Ion cannon that sort of nuke) and / or a valk will get the job done also.

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Re: The most powerful PVP team : 244 Valk/341 Snake/325 Qira

Post by Vek » January 22nd, 2014, 1:25 am

Actually I meant opponents that don't switch their pets during the battle, like those who sit there with their haunted aquatic and eat sandstorm. I see how my post could be misunderstood.

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Re: The most powerful PVP team : 244 Valk/341 Snake/325 Qira

Post by Vek » January 22nd, 2014, 1:40 am

As you said yourself anyone can bring three counter pets to face your team, but then they would probably just get some other opponent when they queued and not do as well as planned. The difficult thing is to compose a team that does well against multiple opponents as well as handling this team.

I'm currently trying out pets that don't see much playtime. I could see S/S Mongoose Pup or 325 speed frog being useful. Even that Clockwork Gnome + Zandalari Toenibbler from another thread can be useful, sandstorm isn't much of an issue with Black Claw.

One thing I have noticed is that in general people, at least in my battle group, don't use very fast pets with the exception of occasional Moths/Crows.

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Re: The most powerful PVP team : 244 Valk/341 Snake/325 Qira

Post by 3wd » January 22nd, 2014, 2:06 am

Vek wrote:As you said yourself anyone can bring three counter pets to face your team, but then they would probably just get some other opponent when they queued and not do as well as planned. The difficult thing is to compose a team that does well against multiple opponents as well as handling this team.

I'm currently trying out pets that don't see much playtime. I could see S/S Mongoose Pup or 325 speed frog being useful. Even that Clockwork Gnome + Zandalari Toenibbler from another thread can be useful, sandstorm isn't much of an issue with Black Claw.

One thing I have noticed is that in general people, at least in my battle group, don't use very fast pets with the exception of occasional Moths/Crows.
Well, regarding switch pet after you ate a haunt, unless you us an aqua pet to eat it, otherwise when you pull it to the back row, that means you will lose at least 750hp, considering the fact that both the snake and guarding both are very strong on controlling skills, you may never get any chance to attack with that 750hp again.

See? That's the key of this team, which will force people to think twice about switch, because of the speed and control issue.

Mongoose will do very poorly against this team, unlike the crab or craw dad, it lacks the hp to stall nor heal skill, and it doesn't have any strong attack either.

Gnome is bad against both the snake and sandstorm, very hard to pull it off. Zand raptor on paper can put up a fight if guessing correctly to apply the reduce speed debuff, but again due to very low hp and low speed, eventually won't survive against this team.

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Re: The most powerful PVP team : 244 Valk/341 Snake/325 Qira

Post by Vek » January 22nd, 2014, 2:24 am

I don't see what you mean. Pup takes less damage from the Valk and eats the snake for breakfast. If it goes up against the Guardling it's a guessing game if you are going to stun or use Sandstorm, or wait stall with Crush, since it can dive and avoid one of those attacks.

Even If you pull the pet to the back line you will still have damaged the Valk so it won't be 750 vs 0 dmg.

I think you underestimate the Gnome + Raptor combination. The raptor wouldn't need to use its speed debuff, and if it really wanted it could use leap instead. Raptors are not expected to live, just dish out Black Claw. On paper the raptor looks squishy and it is, but it would definitely put the hurt on you first.

Also Gnome is one of the few pets that actually does not care that much about blinding poison.

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Re: The most powerful PVP team : 244 Valk/341 Snake/325 Qira

Post by Avalee » January 22nd, 2014, 7:41 am

3wd wrote:round 2 :
fox stay (none of the fox kit has 325 speed)
guardling kick and stun
fox take another 156 dmg

round 3 :
fox stun
snake up
fox take another 156 dmg
You assume that everyone just leaves their stunned pet on the front row for 2 rounds? Nobody will do that. I will move my fox to the back row and wait til I can hit the valkyr again when it's out.

This team sounds very nice on paper but in reality, it will not go as you predict all the time.

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Re: The most powerful PVP team : 244 Valk/341 Snake/325 Qira

Post by Voidsinger » January 22nd, 2014, 9:19 am

Do any fights do? I always laugh when I get misses on 95% skills at the most inopportune time, but they happen. A bad switch here, a lucky bounce there. I think the OP's point is that this team gives you the best chance against the widest range of teams right now. As someone else said, you could spend weeks building a counter to this, but then you may be weak against normal teams.

Like any other game, you have to read into the current flow and get a feel for the current 'meta'. What types of teams are coming in? What combos do you see? What pets are overused? You then need to hedge your bets and go for the best team that will be strong against the meta/FoTM but also not suffer much from other funky teams. The OP's point is exactly that - Valk and Death Adder are pretty much two of the strongest pets out there (I'd say both are top 5) and they synergize extremely well. Combine with a third pet with supplemental abilities (here, the Guardling's stun and aqua threat) or a third pet that's also a strong threat by himself and you've got the markings of a team that will beat most any team, most any time.

Not all the time though, but again, that's not the point.

EDIT: Need to emphasize it's a S/S adder. I think other breeds are not nearly as strong.

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Re: The most powerful PVP team : 244 Valk/341 Snake/325 Qira

Post by 3wd » January 22nd, 2014, 10:38 am

Avalee wrote:
3wd wrote:round 2 :
fox stay (none of the fox kit has 325 speed)
guardling kick and stun
fox take another 156 dmg

round 3 :
fox stun
snake up
fox take another 156 dmg
You assume that everyone just leaves their stunned pet on the front row for 2 rounds? Nobody will do that. I will move my fox to the back row and wait til I can hit the valkyr again when it's out.

This team sounds very nice on paper but in reality, it will not go as you predict all the time.
I mentioned very clearly in the above post, I will be more happier if you decided to move your pet with huant on to the back row.

Why?

Huant is a dot will do totally 5 rounds of dmg, 156 dmg per round, and that's total of 780 dmg.

Assuming your pet has around 1465 HP, that means you will have less than 700 HP left.

And what does it mean?

For any pet with less than 700 HP and will be facing the snake and you do not have any special skills to heal or avoidance, the snake can just use blind, fang + puncture to finish you off without taking a hit.

If you will be facing the guardling, stun + 390 fist + 390 fist / 350 sandstorm can kill you easily also.

And don't forget, even you will move a new pet to the front row, you still will be controlled unless you have very high speed, and by the time you can attack, my valk will be up at the back row and she can soak the dmg and repeat the same rotation again.

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Re: The most powerful PVP team : 244 Valk/341 Snake/325 Qira

Post by 3wd » January 22nd, 2014, 10:56 am

Vek wrote:I don't see what you mean. Pup takes less damage from the Valk and eats the snake for breakfast. If it goes up against the Guardling it's a guessing game if you are going to stun or use Sandstorm, or wait stall with Crush, since it can dive and avoid one of those attacks.

Even If you pull the pet to the back line you will still have damaged the Valk so it won't be 750 vs 0 dmg.

I think you underestimate the Gnome + Raptor combination. The raptor wouldn't need to use its speed debuff, and if it really wanted it could use leap instead. Raptors are not expected to live, just dish out Black Claw. On paper the raptor looks squishy and it is, but it would definitely put the hurt on you first.

Also Gnome is one of the few pets that actually does not care that much about blinding poison.
First of all, mongoose pup does not have any breed with 325 speed, its either 357 or 322. If you choose 322, that's the worst, so I assume you will take the 357 one.

Best skill combo for you will be probably Gnaw/Survival/Dive, Gnaw is only strong against critter otherwise it will do about 350 dmg max and its a 2 hit attack - meaning very weak under sandstorm.

And you only have 1237 HP.

I can just start out with a sandstorm and then trade fist with you with my guardling or even trade normal attack with my valk and your mongoose will fall quickly.

Hence its really not a good choice.

As for the Gnome and raptor combo, well the torrent will get its 2rd and 3rd hit ignoring the blind but again we are talking about 68 dmg per hit even against the snake so that's 136 hit for 2 rounds, not a big deal, the dot from the poison fang will do about 100 dmg per round for 5 rounds, if your gnome will be in the battlefield against my snake? I know you will start with a torrent and I usually will start out with a poison fang, blind and puncture and then switch. 3 rounds you will be close to under 20% of HP and I will just take 200+272 = around 500 dmg, still very healthy.

As for the raptor, as I said, you have very low HP, and if your speed is not the highest 341, you will still be controlled by the guardling or snake, worst case, if you have very high speed, I can still use my valk to soak the damage to kill you. Valk is undead, so she can counter any speed by her undead racial.

The point is : basically you can not win against this team with low hp pets because of its rotation and team make up, going the other way to use the high hp pets will be a better choice.

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