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Next Nerf?

Discuss pet battles, strategy and theorycrafting.
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Gráinne
 
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Next Nerf?

Postby Gráinne » August 26th, 2017, 4:12 am

Since the Howlbomb nerf, I see more and more strategies based on Haunt/(Flock or Stampede or Hunting Party) with maybe a Black Claw or CoD thrown in to taste.

I hear (I do not want spoilers: there are few enough things I don't already get by osmosis on forums) that this strat will take care of a lot of Argus as well.

The devs nerfed Howlbomb because it was becoming 42 - The Answer To Life, The Universe, and Everything in the pet battling world. Haunt/Stampede is the new Howlbomb.

Of course, with that addon effectively botting all battles, maybe it doesn't matter any more, but do you think the devs are readying the nerfhammer for deployment on the Haunt/Stampede strat at the end of the expansion? Or even earlier?

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Re: Next Nerf?

Postby Jerebear » August 26th, 2017, 9:28 am

I hope not. The nerf to howlbomb was over done. Howl is more impotent compared to similar abilities. I think if they are worried they need use a more creative solution, maybe on the bosses end.
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Digem
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Re: Next Nerf?

Postby Digem » August 26th, 2017, 10:24 am

I too hope not but nerfing things to the ground is blizz's way just ask any shadow priest.

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Re: Next Nerf?

Postby Raax » August 26th, 2017, 11:22 am

Maybe adding more randomness to the battles would help. If you didn't know which openers you were going to get, or when a swap would happen - that would make people actually have to think about which moves to use.

(Oh and I'm an SP - can confirm nerfs)

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Re: Next Nerf?

Postby Quintessence » August 26th, 2017, 2:00 pm

Aren't there more ways to counter Haunt/Stampede/Black Claw than there are ways to counter (original) Howlbomb?

If so, I don't think a nerf to Haunt/Stampede is necessary. NPCs being faster and shielding, dot cleansing, force swapping, stuns, etc? More abilities to prevent or reduce the effects of this combo?

IMO the problem with original Howlbomb was that even Elite/Boss NPC pets couldn't really counter it well. Sure, they had the passive that prevented the full damage, but Howlbomb still chunked their life down by a lot in one hit. I bet Howlbomb was the reason that this passive was even implemented.

Howlbomb was fast, it was effective against even the supposedly toughest NPCs, so it became the go-to. It required specific pets to be the most effective, and who doesn't want to be super effective? It was becoming one of the only teams you needed to be successful in most trainer battles.

Haunt/Stampede requires a bit more ramp up time (correct me if I'm wrong), and there are more ways an NPC can ruin your strat. Plus there's a variety of pets that we can use to execute Haunt/Stampede, giving players more options. IMO options/room for creativity is important in a mini-game such as Pet Battles.
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Biscuit
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Re: Next Nerf?

Postby Biscuit » August 26th, 2017, 2:13 pm

I agree with Jere that the issue should be addressed on the Boss end of things, rather than effecting it outside of tamer fights.

I do, however, feel that Haunt/claw is the newest incarnation of the EZ Button and shouldn't be ignored before the next expansion hits.

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Gráinne
 
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Re: Next Nerf?

Postby Gráinne » August 26th, 2017, 11:18 pm

I agree with Jere and Biscuit that the solution should be on the Boss' end. But then I felt that about Howlbomb too. A nerf is easier.

Maybe they will do Iron Thread for Everybody. I'm not a fan of ex machina mechanics, like Elite or Boss or Iron Thread, but it might be better than a nerf.

I definitely agree with Raax that we need more variation of some sort in PvE battles, so the answers can't always just be botted.

Quintessence, I think the only current NPC counter in the game is Iron Thread, apart from any shells or shields that the pet may have.

OTOH, Haunt was one of the two main contenders for a Most OP in PvP award, and the Haunt/Shattered Defences combo is overused in PvE. Remember that the devs nerfed both the PWS and Howl.

I'd be surprised is the Nerf-Cannon isn't already charging.

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Jerebear
 
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Re: Next Nerf?

Postby Jerebear » August 27th, 2017, 3:46 pm

Quintessence wrote:Aren't there more ways to counter Haunt/Stampede/Black Claw than there are ways to counter (original) Howlbomb?

If so, I don't think a nerf to Haunt/Stampede is necessary. NPCs being faster and shielding, dot cleansing, force swapping, stuns, etc? More abilities to prevent or reduce the effects of this combo?

IMO the problem with original Howlbomb was that even Elite/Boss NPC pets couldn't really counter it well. Sure, they had the passive that prevented the full damage, but Howlbomb still chunked their life down by a lot in one hit. I bet Howlbomb was the reason that this passive was even implemented.

Howlbomb was fast, it was effective against even the supposedly toughest NPCs, so it became the go-to. It required specific pets to be the most effective, and who doesn't want to be super effective? It was becoming one of the only teams you needed to be successful in most trainer battles.

Haunt/Stampede requires a bit more ramp up time (correct me if I'm wrong), and there are more ways an NPC can ruin your strat. Plus there's a variety of pets that we can use to execute Haunt/Stampede, giving players more options. IMO options/room for creativity is important in a mini-game such as Pet Battles.


Just some things to consider:

Howl Bomb:
Geyser, Whirlpool, swap, howl [, surge of power] => 4-5 rounds

Black claw combo:
[Haunt, ] Black Claw, Hunting Party, Hunting Party [, 3rd round of stampede] => 3-5 rounds

Shields have minimal impact on either strategy (howl bomb does damage in large chunks, so the 70 to 90 damage reduction has very litte effect, and black claw counters them well enough). They probably do counter black claw combos slightly better though.

Blocks/Dodges/Ethereal more easily counter howl bomb as all damage happens on 1-2 rounds, where the black claw combo happens over 3+ rounds with 9+ attacks

Cleansing debuffs better counters howl as it can be done on the same round as all the main damage, where as the black claw combo applies debuffs and damage over multiple rounds and still does some damage and maybe even leaves the target with a double damage debuff at the end if the cleansing was early. This might be a wash, but I would bet that the black claw combo comes out doing more damage when countered by a cleanse.

Force swapping and stuns seem to counter both methods similarly (interrupting the flow of damage).

Honestly, I feel like they both have similar setup times and that Howl Bomb is easier to counter due to the "everything on the same round" nature. With black claw you will end up taking some damage if you don't do something the very early. With Howl Bomb you have time to setup the counter. In pvp both are generally easy to prevent, but in PvE a general solution is probably harder to figure out.

I do agree that requiring a specific pet (PWS) was very undesirable and made the solution even less fun.

What are your thoughts on this? These are just my feelings though, so keep that in mind. I'm sure others have better thoughts than me!
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Quintessence
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Re: Next Nerf?

Postby Quintessence » August 27th, 2017, 4:37 pm

I very rarely made use of Howlbomb in its original form, and I'm comparing it to my experiences with Black Claw/Stampede in encounters where it was very punishing if you messed up. So just IMO, the latter wasn't nearly as overpowered as the former. Effective? Yep. I can completely understand why it's starting to be the go-to strat now.

If they are indeed gearing up for a nerf to Haunt/Black Claw/Stampede, how about a passive to boss/elite pets that make them immune to debuffs/dots? Or make it last only 1 round instead of its full duration? Something like that could really put a dampener on the strat.
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Vakeetah
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Re: Next Nerf?

Postby Vakeetah » August 30th, 2017, 1:15 pm

To be completely honest, the clear fix would be to make the 50% damage reduction apply to the total damage, after all calculations. That is, whatever damage you'd deal to a normal pet is halved.

The Boss passive already does a damage post-calculation (capping the damage to 35% of max health) so it's not like it cannot be done. Plus, it'd be more intuitive than the current interactions with damage taken debuffs.
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