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Strongest most OP pet ability

Discuss pet battles, strategy and theorycrafting.
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Sile9
 
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Re: Strongest most OP pet ability

Postby Sile9 » July 31st, 2017, 3:03 pm

Shieldstorm was one of the strangest additions to pet battles I've ever seen. A potential 3 turn advantage in a single turn investment available only for a Blizzcon pet that was already strong with two other unique skills that, to this day, still lasts indefinitely despite the tooltip. Meanwhile, Refuge, the plebs' version, can only extend its limited duration shielding to one of the weakest and least diverse pet families. Wut?

Still, I would rate Haunt as stronger due to how relatively weak its counters are. A block/swap team built around Shieldstorm will crumble when faced with Immolation, Bone Barrage, or Cyclone, whereas even when "countered" a good Haunt team will get a lot of mileage out of the free swap and be able to advance their strategy while you are forced to play defensive to manage the DoT alone.

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Drlambda
 
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Re: Strongest most OP pet ability

Postby Drlambda » July 31st, 2017, 5:59 pm

I think we have to make a difference between styles of OP abiities. First of all, there are those that, either for power reasons or because they are so flexible are incredibly powerful on their own. Traps, Haunt, Nether Gate and Wish fall into that category.
There are also some abilities that are fundamentally unfair and don't get the same exposition because they are kept under control by being on subpar or unreasonable to acquire pets. Discharge, Righteous Inspiration, Jar of Smelly Liquid/Weakness and Shieldstorm are in that category.
Blinding Powder is a category on it's own, it's a fundamentally unfair ability that is kept under control because it's bugged right now. Try to blind a Bone Barrage to see what i mean.
Then there are abilities that manipulate the rules in a way that turns them into something really strong. That would be Call Darkness, Sunlight / Illuminate and my personal inclusion Powerball. All of those, rather than being upfront, dictate the battle from the point they are used. You could also count Surge in here if you want to, but i don't see spammable priority moves as OP, although they also don't allow some pets to function.

My arguments to include Powerball: It breaks multiple fundamental rules of pet battling. It's a ramp-up move that doesn't reset on swap as well as having no duration, no way to break it and no cap (at least within reasonable parameters.) You want to make your pet faster than a S/S Flyer that spams Weakness? You absolutely can. Once you used it a few times, you make complete teams unable to operate. Combine that with the fact that it increases the most important stat in pet pvp, and there you go. Considering how many teams and abilities manipulate speed, and Powerball makes you able to completely ignore them, i really think that it is a low-key OP ability.
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Sile9
 
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Re: Strongest most OP pet ability

Postby Sile9 » July 31st, 2017, 10:22 pm

Naw, I was talking about Shieldstorm.

Due to smooth swaps into evaders and gaters with backline healing and beefcakes armed with an all you can Consume buffet, the only pet that's really vulnerable throughout on your stock Haunt team is the Wicked Soul topping everybody off before the next ride. When executed correctly, the one that is there solely as a fire-and-forget DoT will be the first to die as Consume Corpse comes off CD for the fresh fuel and the teroclaw finishes recharging to maximum Alpha Strike capacity. Even for a less defensive Haunt team such as say Zandalari Raptor and Bone Serpent the smart play is to use the Soul to heal and stall for CDs. If they're doing it right, the Wicked Soul should not be their last pet.

It's not that Haunt has no downsides but that they are too easily worked around to justify its extreme potential and lack of a an effective counter on the level of Cyclone for Shieldstorm.

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Rosqo
 
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Re: Strongest most OP pet ability

Postby Rosqo » August 1st, 2017, 11:55 am

Shieldstorm probably isn't working as intended if it's tooltip say it's meant to be 8 rounds in duration not indefinitely it's just Blizzard are notoriously lazy at changing or fixing abilities.

You could make the same argument with the tooltip being incorrect on traps aswell. They don't solely go off when a pet attacks, you can even pass the turn and it still activates.

Haunt on the wicked soul is definitely up there if not the strongest ability simply due to it usually being quicker and always going first. Haunt on the valk and kid is strong but much more in line with other strong abilities we are discussing.

I still think darkness is a contender as a lot of viable teams rely on healing.

Powerball in an interesting one as it's a strong ability providing the pets that use it can then benefit. The vengeful porcupette shows how strong it can be as its other abilities really synergize well with speed but it's not that common. Iron starlette is another pet that can benefit with its powerball.

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Sile9
 
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Re: Strongest most OP pet ability

Postby Sile9 » August 3rd, 2017, 1:05 pm

I think all three of the Haunt pets are ridiculous in their own right, and I see all of them regularly. Ghastly Kid especially is an even better undead counter than any critter or aquatic I'm aware of. Heck, it's an even better Haunt counter since it doesn't need to hard swap while dotted to escape the counter pet. Just the fact that you can stack the game in your favor by forcing the ideal matchup against the most prevalent pet type in the meta by dodge-dotting anything that doesn't get smashed by Hoof on a pet sturdy enough to withstand a Bone Serpent combo is no minor advantage.

Honestly, I've been trying to think what possible ability they could add that would be considered a true counter, and all I can come up with is a priority feign death dispel on a 4 round cooldown with your choice of pet.

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Rosqo
 
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Re: Strongest most OP pet ability

Postby Rosqo » August 3rd, 2017, 2:46 pm

At least with the slower haunters there is more decisions to make for when to cast haunt. The shame is due to them being undead and high health they are resilient enough to cause a lot of issues. I sometimes run the h/h valk with UA and its basic attack often takes down anything but direct counters.

If haunt killed on misses it would definitely reduce its use in the queue

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Gráinne
 
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Re: Strongest most OP pet ability

Postby Gráinne » August 3rd, 2017, 5:52 pm

Biscuit wrote:I have a feeling we'd see a LOT less Haunt pets in the queue if missing Haunt (by evasion, blind, Darkness, etc) would instantly kill the caster.

Exactly the Haunt nerf we need! Bravo!

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Vakeetah
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Re: Strongest most OP pet ability

Postby Vakeetah » August 3rd, 2017, 7:33 pm

I beg to differ with the suggested Haunt nerf. Missing already makes it incur its cooldown, and totally screws the plans for the user. To me, that is enough of a punishment.

Besides, if missing made it kill the user instantly, that'd be an indirect buff to Darkness: "10% chance to kill any pet with Haunt"; and more power to Darkness is not something I'd like to see. It's true that the same would apply to Sandstorm, not nearly as prevalent or concerning, but it already sort of soft-counters Haunt, without the need for a potential insta-kill.

Personally, I think a Health cost of some sort (think BONESTORM) would do the trick. Wouldn't discourage its use a lot, but it'd guarantee that the caster would eventually wear out from Haunting.

As for the ever-controversial traps... I'd say it only needs to have the stun duration lowered to current round; so that it interrupts the attack (like Interrupting Gaze or Kick) but doesn't persist for the round after. That, or have the stun happen after the attack. Having both things, on top of damage, is what makes them too strong. Also activating on expiration or removal, but that's another matter :P
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Paladance
 
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Re: Strongest most OP pet ability

Postby Paladance » August 4th, 2017, 1:08 am

If the suggestion above was in play, what about a "miss" while the ability is performed during the first part (slower pets only) of the Damned state? I don't think it would work as the passive invulnerability would outweigh the sentence.

  • An old suggestion on Haunt: Make it so removing objects (?) or casting Consume Corpse causes the DoT to expire and the haunter to die permanently. The debuff dispelling works as usual.
  • A newer suggestion: Make the passing into event always last (e.g. "After the current round")
  • Something Else: Works as usual, but deals base 10 damage to next ally entering the battle (think weaker Booby-Trapped Presents on you).
  • SE v. 2: Works as usual, but your team's base critical hit chance is reduced to 0 for the time of duration (can be brought back earlier) / plain 3 rounds.
  • A non-Euclidean 180°change: Instead of dealing so much damage, it reduces healing received by 50 or even 75%. Or a mix.
And on the traps, an opposite to the above (variety rocks): could be triggered as an out-of-the-turn effect, as Sons of the Root or Chew can, so it still stuns rather than interrupts, but also just for one round.
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Drlambda
 
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Re: Strongest most OP pet ability

Postby Drlambda » August 4th, 2017, 7:31 am

My suggestion for a Haunt nerf would be to make it always go last, like an inverted Surge. That way, you're not getting a free dodge and get lot of counterplay options (like dodges or killing the pet). It's still a "free swap" (much like it is on Elekk Plushie) and the heaviest DOT in game, so it'd be still be playable, although heavily nerfed.

This would also make Unborn Val'kyr, which pretty much loses to Ghastly Kid and Wicked Soul on every aspect except for availability more viable as a haunt user again, just because it has the biggest health pool (although not by much.)
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Drlambda
 
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Re: Strongest most OP pet ability

Postby Drlambda » August 4th, 2017, 12:15 pm

I suggested removing the artifically increased base speed from both of these pets and putting them back at 325 a while ago, but i got a lot of negative feedback for that.
CloseToZero - Watch me lose on youtube with bad pets! :D

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