PvP rewards

Discuss pet battles, strategy and theorycrafting.
User avatar
Gráinne
Posts:948
Joined:July 7th, 2015
Pet Score:13284
Realm:Magtheridon-eu
Contact:
Re: PvP rewards

Post by Gráinne » July 9th, 2017, 5:45 pm

Rosqo wrote:Has anyone got any other ideas?
Well, the idea that has been floated more than any other is something along the lines of:

1. You tag a set of pets - say, 50). No dupes.

2. The game presents you 5 from that set chosen at random. You pick one.

3. The game presents you another 5 from that set chosen at random. You pick another one.

4. The game presents you another 5 from that set chosen at random. You pick another one.

You now have 3 pets. You can select their abilities and queue with them.

Disco actually did a personal variant of this in his most recent vid.

However, this would require a lot of structure and interference with the existing code, and as I said in my OP, I can understand that, given current participation levels, the devs might be wary about committing that amount of work to such a minority pursuit.

Hence why I asked for comments about rewards, which is a much more limited objective.

User avatar
Drudatz
Top Rater
Posts:387
Joined:June 13th, 2011
Pet Score:10205
Realm:Kul Tiras-eu
Contact:

Re: PvP rewards

Post by Drudatz » July 9th, 2017, 5:57 pm

Rosklo wrote:As drudas says pets from one family thing doesn't really work in pvp as it's just gonna result in triple teams or easy counters.
exactly.
Quintessence wrote:It would probably have to be a separate PVP queue though.
  • One week the quest could be complete (or win) X games using all pets from one family.
  • Another week the quest could involve strategies/teams that can't use DoTs.
  • Maybe a quest where pets can't use heals, or their healing is dampened significantly.
Looking at Blizzard I doubt that is gonna happen cause the effort aint worth it
because you would have to rewritte so many codelines OR (what is worse) bloat it up more.
For example there is no way ingame atm to check if a pet is a dotter or not.
Quintessence wrote:New pet PVP quests with updated rewards, but of course keeping it optional. ^^;
You keep throwing this around but there is no real usefull pet reward anymore.
At least not untill we can level beyond 25.
You said yourself earlier as an example for reward:
buff food only usable in pve - which only would force pvp haters to do pvp and dont give pvp'ers a reward...

the effort reward correlation aint there on Blizzards side. Easier would be to implement more pvp achivments.

User avatar
Rosqo
Posts:276
Joined:April 26th, 2017
Pet Score:9646
Realm:Silvermoon-eu
Contact:

Re: PvP rewards

Post by Rosqo » July 9th, 2017, 6:18 pm

What about stuff like artifact power or increased gold as rewards at least that would have some value.

Transmog sets?

Mounts?

Summonable pet vendor npc? Like a Jeeves for pet stuff.

Probably could just tie it to wins in certain zones for the transmog.

User avatar
Gráinne
Posts:948
Joined:July 7th, 2015
Pet Score:13284
Realm:Magtheridon-eu
Contact:

Re: PvP rewards

Post by Gráinne » July 9th, 2017, 6:21 pm

I do agree that it's hard to find rewards. They're already pouring rewards like rain in a tropical storm.
Drudatz wrote:Easier would be to implement more pvp achivments.
OK, so that's a possible direction.

I think families would be good for a giggle, remembering that you need a strictly limited number of wins with each, but if not that, then Continent pets, Vendor pets, RWL pets etc. are obvious subsets. Win 10 with a team each subset.

Any other directions for rewards to make things interesting?

User avatar
Spinning
Top Rater
Posts:35
Joined:December 11th, 2016
Pet Score:5763
Realm:Deathguard-eu
Contact:

Re: PvP rewards

Post by Spinning » July 9th, 2017, 6:29 pm

Gráinne wrote:Any other directions for rewards to make things interesting?
I am going to say something that might seem utterly nonsensical, but I think is true:
rewards in pvp pet battles will lead to more toxic FOTM teams
people who play only for the sake of getting their 5k/1k/250 achievement are the ones who usually play with terroclaw/bone serpent/ancient comps (since they are most win/time efficient); adding more incentive to play pet battles might increase the general player population size, however the "concentration of toxicity" will increase dramatically as well.
P.S I've played around 600 games during this critter event and I've run into SO many serpents, souls, ancients, flowers, crawdads that I've decided to make a break from pet battles for a few weeks

User avatar
Drudatz
Top Rater
Posts:387
Joined:June 13th, 2011
Pet Score:10205
Realm:Kul Tiras-eu
Contact:

Re: PvP rewards

Post by Drudatz » July 9th, 2017, 8:56 pm

Rosqo wrote:What about stuff like artifact power or increased gold as rewards at least that would have some value.
No - I can allready hear the cries of people "why force us to do pet battles for advancing our weapon"....
Rosqo wrote:Transmog sets?
What has that to do with Pet PVP?....
Rosqo wrote:Mounts?
you are not even trying anymore to find something reasonable?
Roslo wrote:Summonable pet vendor npc? Like a Jeeves for pet stuff.
If you want to summon a pet that works as vendore there is allready 3 for that: Guild Herald/Page and the Argent Gruntling.
You didnt mean a Vendor that sells pets did you? ^^
Spinning wrote:rewards in pvp pet battles will lead to more toxic FOTM teams
There are no toxic pets only pets YOU dislike.... and as long as even blues rave how they like to play 3x darkness teams nothing will change.
Last edited by Drudatz on July 10th, 2017, 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Spinning
Top Rater
Posts:35
Joined:December 11th, 2016
Pet Score:5763
Realm:Deathguard-eu
Contact:

Re: PvP rewards

Post by Spinning » July 9th, 2017, 9:14 pm

Deliberately misspelled name wrote:
Spinning wrote:rewards in pvp pet battles will lead to more toxic FOTM teams
There are no toxic pets only pets YOU dislike.... and as long as even blues rave how they like to play 3x darkness teams nothing will change.
feel free to read "toxic" as "overpowered"

User avatar
Rosqo
Posts:276
Joined:April 26th, 2017
Pet Score:9646
Realm:Silvermoon-eu
Contact:

Re: PvP rewards

Post by Rosqo » July 10th, 2017, 1:44 am

Roslo? lol whyve you done that drudatz?

I actually meant a vendor much like the one you can buy stones and other pet consumables from. It would be cool if we could summon one wherever we are.

Transmog would be a cool reward especially if it was a similar theme to the pet battle hat we already have. Perhaps you earn a piece after 250 wins in each zone or something like that?

I guess they are giving out mounts for everything already so it's not really needed but it would be nice to have a pet themed one.

I definitely agree that increased rewards will cause people to play teams for cheap wins using pets that are frustrating to play against stuff like BS's, teroclaws, crawdads, BA's etc. Luckily only a minority play with these teams as the majority of the player base use a wide range of pets trying out different combinations.

User avatar
Spinning
Top Rater
Posts:35
Joined:December 11th, 2016
Pet Score:5763
Realm:Deathguard-eu
Contact:

Re: PvP rewards

Post by Spinning » July 11th, 2017, 9:00 pm

What I think might be a good change is to change the achievement criteria. All PvP pet achievements require wins. Win 250/1000/5000. Instead of asking the player to win, therefore forcing him/her to play with the cream of the crop teams, this achievement could just require to play some number of matches. Botting and insta-concede could be prevented by damage/time requirements. OR maybe Blizzard should introduce some kind of "pvp pet battle reputation" like they have in pvp in warsong gulch, arathi basin and AV. Let's say you get a +100 for a win, +15 for each of the opponents' pets killed and +25 for a loss. I know it would be a tough grind, but it would really diversify the current pet pool.

User avatar
Gráinne
Posts:948
Joined:July 7th, 2015
Pet Score:13284
Realm:Magtheridon-eu
Contact:

Re: PvP rewards

Post by Gráinne » July 11th, 2017, 9:28 pm

Spinning wrote:Let's say you get a +100 for a win, +15 for each of the opponents' pets killed and +25 for a loss.
Yes, I have always liked the idea of giving partial credit for each opponent pet killed. It allows beginners, especially, to walk away from a battle feeling that at least they have got something for their time and effort. For example, a weekly quest to kill 30 of the opponent's pets would be something they could work towards with a bit more certainty.
Spinning wrote:OR maybe Blizzard should introduce some kind of "pvp pet battle reputation" like they have in pvp in warsong gulch, arathi basin and AV.
Ooooooooh! Evil idea! I love it! Gain points with a species by using the pet in a PvP team. What's your rep with Marsh Fiddler? :P

User avatar
Spinning
Top Rater
Posts:35
Joined:December 11th, 2016
Pet Score:5763
Realm:Deathguard-eu
Contact:

Re: PvP rewards

Post by Spinning » July 11th, 2017, 11:50 pm

Spinning wrote:What's your rep with Marsh Fiddler?
Or they can introduce "The Pet Brawler's Guild" for this exact reason

User avatar
Drlambda
Posts:64
Joined:May 8th, 2016
Pet Score:5543
Realm:Arthas-eu
Contact:

Re: PvP rewards

Post by Drlambda » July 12th, 2017, 4:06 am

I really like the idea of partial credit or some variance in the weekly quest to encourage new players to try out pet battling.

Like it was said here before and like i said in the other thread, there is either a balance you have to find between increasing rewards and increasing the number of toxic teams in the queue, or Blizzard would have to take a more active approach at balancing individual pets, which i'm not sure they're willing to commit to. Having someone feel forced to do pet battles (by per example giving out AP. gold, even mounts) leads to more toxic teams just like i think noone that uses triple Serpent is actually enjoying himself, even if the rewards could be grinded out elsewhere with less "hassle." The amount of posts you find on reddit etc about being forced to do some kind of content, true or not, really shows how human psychology works for rewards like those.

What i like is the idea of handing out quality of life improvements for pet battlers, like creating a summonable pet charm vendor, maybe a teleport to the next trainer or even a summonable trainer like the ghost in Azsuna. Of course, adding more achievement pets or putting some new pets into the weekly reward, as well as obviously adding pet charms to the weekly reward, would also improve the worth of pet battling a lot for actual collectors while not making anyone feel forced to do the content.

Last but not least, i have to say that a gamemode that doesn't let you take your selfbuilt team into the queues would destroy my interest in actually doing pvp. I think there could possibly be an alternative gamemode with random or semirandom teams, much like Discodoggy did in one of his last videos, but it shouldn't be the primary method of doing pvp pet battles.
CloseToZero - Watch me lose on youtube with bad pets! :D

User avatar
Nagini
Top Rater
Posts:150
Joined:January 27th, 2013
Pet Score:9683
Realm:Kael'thas-us
Contact:

Re: PvP rewards

Post by Nagini » July 13th, 2017, 6:28 am

I think that changing the requirement from -wins- to -games played- would be an excellent way to avoid people who need a lot of wins from picking a team they don't enjoy just for efficiency's sake. I know, because that's what i did to finish my 1k achievement. I understand that might peeve people who got to 5k the hard way, but in the same way as people who got insane in the membrane before they changed the requirements/reps, you will always have the prestige of 'having done it the hard way'. I am a hardcore achievement hunter and I love pet battling, yet I loathe working on the 5k achievement. The gap between 1k and 5k -wins- is just too big.

Adding in a reputation with pet-related rewards sounds awesome, especially if the rewards could be tailored to not be just for wins, just like how they changed league of Arathor and Silverwing Sentinel reps. I don't see why transmog or even mounts would be unrealistic either, especially if you get rep for "pets killed" or baseline rep for "matches played" so even a player with just three 25 pets could theoretically work his way there. If Blizzard can add fishing vendors that give mounts, toys and pets for reputation gained by doing nothing but fishing, going from there to a pet battle rep/vendor is hardly unrealistic.

I do still like the idea of adding in family familiar style quests or achieves for pet PvP. The "three of X" teams could be avoided easily by including a clause about using three unique pets of a petfamily. Unlike a restriction on abilities, that should be easy to implement code-wise. I mean, its still possible to think up horror 3's (sunflower, blossoming ancient, groot, anyone?) but the extra dedication required to make such combos would mean at least not everyone would be running that.

User avatar
Gráinne
Posts:948
Joined:July 7th, 2015
Pet Score:13284
Realm:Magtheridon-eu
Contact:

Re: PvP rewards

Post by Gráinne » July 13th, 2017, 9:29 am

Drudatz, I think I vaguely remember something about a Blue and Darkness. Do you have a link? I'd love to see the context.

From the gameplay perspective, self-synergy is bad. Self-synergy is the enemy. Self-synergy delenda est.

Call Darkness->Nocturnal Strike and Sunlight->Photosynthesis are two big example problems of self-synergy. They are problems because they are very powerful, but require no decisions. They're just gimmes.

Call Darkness->Nocturnal Strike was a bit off when it was confined to Ravens and Crows, but at least those were glass cannons that turned into pumpkins after two rounds, when they had shot their nukes and lost their racials, so they did have a compensating weakness. A well-played Bone Serpent can get off two innings, and still win by virtue of its racial.

Nagini, I'm not convinced that people should be rewarded just for entering a battle. That would lead to people just entering and leaving - or, if there was a duration constraint, entering, wasting time, and leaving.

Spinning, what are you thinking with The Pet Brawler's Guild? Just a rep that climbs for PvP won?

I am not, btw, convinced that simple balance is as terribad as it is sometimes portrayed. You can't possibly balance 800 pets, and anyone who has played a bit knows that you can beat a Tier-1 team with a much lesser team. Yes, it's uphill, but it's do-able. I was maintaining a 70%-80% rate during the reign of terror of Graves and the Evul Undead without Graves and mostly without using BS. And the MPD wasn't much use in my meta because of all the bones. But the battles were brain-melting, because I had to calculate every time, while the Graves/BS user just pressed keys in the same sequence every time. That's the evil of self-synergy.

The problem of balance is more complicated; it's about a few pets being just a bit better - and much simpler - to get an effect with.

I get that more rewards leads to more people playing to win, but the lack of rewards at the moment is leading to few people playing. I agree with Nagini that the gap from 1K to 5K, with no watering holes en route, is just to wide a desert to cross. We need some shorter term goals. Rewards in general are a problem, since almost everything comes down to currency, but PvP rewards in particular could use a buff here.

Oh, and I see we have another YouTube pet PvP channel! They're really popping up recently. :)
https://www.youtube.com/user/CloseToZero

User avatar
Spinning
Top Rater
Posts:35
Joined:December 11th, 2016
Pet Score:5763
Realm:Deathguard-eu
Contact:

Re: PvP rewards

Post by Spinning » July 13th, 2017, 9:16 pm

Gráinne wrote:Spinning, what are you thinking with The Pet Brawler's Guild? Just a rep that climbs for PvP won?
It does not NEED to be "won". F.e. in WSG you get rep by capturing a flag. I thought that getting some rep for a win, as well as some rep for each of pet kills would be awesome.
Gráinne wrote:You can't possibly balance 800 pets, and anyone who has played a bit knows that you can beat a Tier-1 team with a much lesser team.
True. But it´s not that difficult to make some adjustments to ten or so pets that cannot be countered or require a very specific counter.
P.S congratulations to CLOSETOZERO for winning EU tournament.

User avatar
Nagini
Top Rater
Posts:150
Joined:January 27th, 2013
Pet Score:9683
Realm:Kael'thas-us
Contact:

Re: PvP rewards

Post by Nagini » July 14th, 2017, 2:44 am

I wanted the reps to work like WSG reps, so maybe i should explain more: In order for it to be balanced (and avoid afk-ers, like you said), the amount of rep you would get in case of a loss would be much less then the reward for a win. For example, you could say 15 rep for a complete 0-3 loss, 50 rep for a loss if you killed one of your opponents pets, 100 rep for killing two pets, and 150 if you killed all three of your opponents pets (and thus won). This would mean there'd still be an advantage to winning, but its perfectly doable to grind to get there with enjoyable teams, and people would probably avoid just letting the match drag on as getting even a single kill would improve reputation gained. New petbattlers would not be left completely empty handed, and it would be much less frustrating for experienced battlers who keep losing matches against the meta by a slight margin.

User avatar
Drudatz
Top Rater
Posts:387
Joined:June 13th, 2011
Pet Score:10205
Realm:Kul Tiras-eu
Contact:

Re: PvP rewards

Post by Drudatz » July 14th, 2017, 2:03 pm

Nagini wrote:I think that changing the requirement from -wins- to -games played- would be an excellent way to avoid people who need a lot of wins from picking a team they don't enjoy just for efficiency's sake.
Excuse I am old and excuse my french but NO. If people pvp there is no pampering.
Thats like when you kid's soccer team lose you tell him "good job!" and give him a trophy. Which is bullshit.
Second whats the point of achivement if you havent achived anything but afk'ed 10/20/...3.000.000 pet pvp games?
Nagini wrote:The gap between 1k and 5k -wins- is just too big.
Then dont do it?
Nagini wrote:I don't see why transmog or even mounts would be unrealistic either
cause mounts and ESPECIALLY transmorgs have nothing to do with pet battles
Nagini wrote:If Blizzard can add fishing vendors that give mounts, toys and pets for reputation gained by doing nothing but fishing, going from there to a pet battle rep/vendor is hardly unrealistic.
But it is QUITE DIFFERENT. ANY new toon can go to the dmf fish and get the mount.
A pet reward should be something involving pets - like new costumes for pepe for example. (that would be great!)
Nagini wrote:I do still like the idea of adding in family familiar style quests or achieves for pet PvP.
And as I said before this doesnt work for pvp only for pve. You dont do the same achivements for raids and pvp either.
Nagini wrote:The "three of X" teams could be avoided easily by including a clause about using three unique pets of a petfamily. Unlike a restriction on abilities, that should be easy to implement code-wise. I mean, its still possible to think up horror 3's (sunflower, blossoming ancient, groot, anyone?) but the extra dedication required to make such combos would mean at least not everyone would be running that.
WRONG! As soon as you put mounts and "gear" into pet pvp everyone and his mom would read wowhead and then run these teams.

User avatar
Drudatz
Top Rater
Posts:387
Joined:June 13th, 2011
Pet Score:10205
Realm:Kul Tiras-eu
Contact:

Re: PvP rewards

Post by Drudatz » July 14th, 2017, 2:43 pm

Gráinne wrote:Drudatz, I think I vaguely remember something about a Blue and Darkness. Do you have a link? I'd love to see the context.
Not at hand, no. But thats the point where it was clear that Blizzard doesnt realy care much for balance to me.
Gráinne wrote:Nagini, I'm not convinced that people should be rewarded just for entering a battle. That would lead to people just entering and leaving - or, if there was a duration constraint, entering, wasting time, and leaving.
Seeing that you can allready react to the pet battle popup and auto-requeuing after one pet pvp match I bet there would be an addon where you just put in the number of how many games you want to be played and you could go read a book while people would face your not doing anything combo in pet pvp....
Gráinne wrote:I am not, btw, convinced that simple balance is as terribad as it is sometimes portrayed.
thats because it aint as people paint it to be, but humans tend to paint everything worse than it actually is.
Gráinne wrote:I get that more rewards leads to more people playing to win, but the lack of rewards at the moment is leading to few people playing.
And I am fine with that. Its the same when you look at the char pve vs char pvp. way less chars pvp and thats okay so why is it not okay for pet pvp?
You wanna introduce pet arenas and ratings?
Gráinne wrote: but PvP rewards in particular could use a buff here.
Here we go again. What would be a good pvp reward? something that boosts your pets in pvp [/saracsm]
Gráinne wrote:Oh, and I see we have another YouTube pet PvP channel!
:roll: could we not turn such threads into yt advertisement threads? tia

User avatar
Drudatz
Top Rater
Posts:387
Joined:June 13th, 2011
Pet Score:10205
Realm:Kul Tiras-eu
Contact:

Re: PvP rewards

Post by Drudatz » July 14th, 2017, 2:47 pm

Spinning wrote:But it´s not that difficult to make some adjustments to ten or so pets that cannot be countered or require a very specific counter.
Could you please list those 10 pets that only can be countered by one specific pet? tia

User avatar
Quintessence
Site Admin
Posts:2756
Joined:June 4th, 2008
Pet Score:13896
Realm:Proudmoore-us
Contact:

Re: PvP rewards

Post by Quintessence » July 14th, 2017, 4:40 pm

Second reminder to everyone: Please keep the discussion friendly and on-topic. If you find you cannot agree with someone else's point of view, it might be best to just move on rather than derail the topic.

If this thread cannot continue in a civil fashion, we'll be locking it.

Remember, we're all here because we're passionate about pets and Pet Battles. :)
Image
Feel free to browse through my pet collecting blog: http://wowpetaddiction.blogspot.com

Post Reply