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Pets that should be in the top 20 Battle pets but aren't

Discuss pet battles, strategy and theorycrafting.
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Abbotta
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Pets that should be in the top 20 Battle pets but aren't

Postby Abbotta » June 24th, 2017, 10:34 am

Seriously - how is the Teroclaw Hatchling not one of the top 20 battle rated pets? Last time I played before my break I barely recall using it and now it seems like my go-to pet for just about every World Quest Pet Battle out there.

Runner up to the Zandalari Anklebiter - the one stop wrecking machine for Tanaan Jungle pet masters.

And speaking of which, I'm sure some of you might argue otherwise - but I haven't found Xu-Fu, Cub of Xuen to be a top 5 rated pet. I rarely use it, maybe because I'm not a big PvPer. But I think the the 2 pets I menioned are much worthier of top 5 rating!

What pets do you think should be in the Top 20 and which pets do you think are not deserving.

https://www.warcraftpets.com/wow-pets/top-twenty/ - link to list

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Re: Pets that should be in the top 20 Battle pets but aren't

Postby Paladance » June 24th, 2017, 11:19 am

It's simply outdated.
Perhaps the website was at its peak during MoP/early WoD so MoP pets feat. Graves are on the top rather than the others.
Note the Pandaren Water Spirit that after the nerf is C-grade IMO and I believe it used to be in the top 5.

Teroclaw, yep, Ikky/Snowfeather Hatchling/Sharptalon Hatchling (I like them more than Zandalaris because of the cooldowns and the effort put in falcos :P), Hyjal Wisp (top magic pet), I guess many would ask for an Iron Starlette or Runeforged Servitor; among the underrated Bleakwater Jelly and PvP wyrmtongues (thanks to racial they are very close to Teroclaw when played wisely; the only thing they lack is a DoT).

Abbotta wrote:And speaking of which, I'm sure some of you might argue otherwise - but I haven't found Xu-Fu, Cub of Xuen to be a top 5 rated pet. I rarely use it, maybe because I'm not a big PvPer. But I think the the 2 pets I menioned are much worthier of top 5 rating!

And so the "other" Xu-Fu has appeared just to fill out the niche. ;)

EDIT: I'm not saying that PWS is sooo bad, several pets I've mentioned are in a similar level. :P Just wanted to give an example of things having changed. :)
Last edited by Paladance on June 25th, 2017, 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pets that should be in the top 20 Battle pets but aren't

Postby Gilneas » June 24th, 2017, 9:34 pm

Note the Pandaren Water Spirit that after the nerf is C-grade IMO and I believe it used to be in the top 5.


That's simply not true. It's still a great pet, and very useful. The cheap trick isn't really why it was/is good.

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Re: Pets that should be in the top 20 Battle pets but aren't

Postby Gráinne » June 24th, 2017, 10:42 pm

Paladance has the reason spot-on. How many pets have you rated, and when was the last time you adjusted your ratings to reflect current balance? :) A lot of people will have rated theirs quite a while ago, so changes don't get reflected. Any "popular vote" list over a long period will have some irrational skewing or bias by time.

I really feel guilty about how few pets I've rated. :( It's just awkward to do hundreds one by one. I should figure a way to get the data in more efficiently than thinking "Um, Albino Chimaeraling? S/S or P/P? um...."

I added up some numbers here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16391&p=131412#p131412 which I expect is as good a list as you will find for the beginning battler doing PvE. PvP tends to use different pets, because speed and trickery are more useful there, so PvP would have a different list.

Hm. Comparing that Top 20 with the Top 21 (those that got 3 or more uses in the strats) from wow-petguide.com. 10 are in both lists. Of the Top 20 here, I would say that

Clockwork Gnome
Darkmoon Tonk
Gilnean Raven
Kun-Lai Runt
Lil' Ragnaros

would earn an honourable place in a list of Top PvE pets. Aranesh would be reluctant to promote a strat for Lil' Ragnaros, since it's a shop pet, and Kun-Lai Runt is a bit breed-dependent for that list as well, but they're both very strong. Magical Crawdad could replace Emperor Crab in a lot of PvE strats, so that one is pretty legit, with the advantage of not depending on breed, but it's a little hard to get / expensive, so people would be reluctant to use it in strats meant for a wide audience.

That leaves these 4 as questionable in a Top list

Graves
Pandaren Water Spirit
Son of Animus
Xu-Fu, Cub of Xuen

Xu-Fu's ratings here are probably skewed by how people got him. I was proud of that, and I'm sure most felt the same way. Graves was hyped to the heavens at one point. PWS was half of Howlbomb, and the ratings haven't caught up with the nerf. That leaves Son of Animus as the only one I can't account for.

So what is not in the Top 20 that is in wow-petguide.com 's strats? Well, yes, Teroclaw and Ikky, largely because they are newer pets, but also entries like "Any Moth", "Any Snail", "Any Fox", "Any Rabbit". And this probably reflects that fact that no specific species can be identified as "Best". So when you make a Top 20 list, which species of 357 speed rabbit should you include? I suppose in a curated list, the totals for all pets with the same moveset and stats could be totalled, to create an entry "357-speed Rabbit", but this Top 20 lists only defined species, not sets of species.

If you go to
https://www.warcraftpets.com/smart-pet-search/

and search for Battle rating > 3 Stars
and then click to Sort By Battle Rating

you will see that the Anklerender actually comes in at #22, and Teroclaw at #23

(and, oh my gawd, Micronax has a Battle Rating of 4.05, with 10 votes, even though nobody in the world has it yet. I can't imagine a better example of why some of the votes are crazy. Who would do that?) I'm glad that the Site Top 20 puts a cut-off on the number of votes needed for inclusion.

One final thing: 20 is a very arbitrary number, and there is a set of I'd say 30-50 pets that is kind of a core group. If you have those, you can do pretty much everything in PvE. So saying that the Scourged Whelpling is #20 and the Anklerender is #21 in that set is not a distinction that really means anything. (But we all love Top X lists. :) )

See also this thread, asking the same question viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16578

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Re: Pets that should be in the top 20 Battle pets but aren't

Postby Gilneas » June 25th, 2017, 2:41 pm

Graves
Pandaren Water Spirit
Son of Animus
Xu-Fu, Cub of Xuen


Animus is really the only questionable one there. The other three are good pets. I can see why people would be confused thinking the PWS is appreciably worse after the "nerf" (It's crazy synergy with one particular other pet was what took the hit, not it's individual usefulness. That's what was interesting about that change. The three pets involved were still good at the things they were individually good at afterwards, but they just didn't work together as well). The seeming hate for Xu-Fu is inexplicable though. He's always been very strong; he just doesn't get used in a lot of commonly shared strats because of the difficulty in acquiring him. It's hard to assume that many people will have him unless they are dedicated pet battlers (and Ban-Fu with his similar moveset likely won't be much different, being tied to spending time leveling the least-played class).

As you go on to say, it's just that 20 is an arbitrary number and there are more than 20 very good pets. Given that there aren't an objective criteria determining/guiding the opinion-driven ratings, I think it's not surprising that most people are going to come up with a somewhat different specific 20.

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Re: Pets that should be in the top 20 Battle pets but aren't

Postby Flow » June 25th, 2017, 6:55 pm

I think there's a lot of confirmation bias in these rankings. When we got battlepets word quickly got around that Anubisath was the 'best' pet. So people got him, used him and found new uses for him. He was like bacon, he could be used everywhere, was even a guide using him on every trainer in Pandaria. He was very convenient for new battlers who didn't have to remember familiy strength/weaknesses. The Clockwork was kind of the same.

In reality the best pets are those you are returning to again and again because you have success with them. And those pets are probably tied to your playstyle. I, for example, favor mitigation or combinations, so rarely do I use allround pets even though they are good pets. From the top 20 list I use 3 regularly and maybe 3-4 occasionally. A lot of the older pets are also superseded by similar pets with a better breed or the addition of a better ability.

Gilneas wrote:
Graves
Pandaren Water Spirit
Son of Animus
Xu-Fu, Cub of Xuen


Animus is really the only questionable one there. The other three are good pets.

A goood example how we view pets differently. I think the Animus is pretty good and the only one of these four I sometimes use. It's just that as a mechanical pet his usefulness is limited and there are other options (against magic pets it's hard to look past MPD, and who doesn't love the starlettes for some power).

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Re: Pets that should be in the top 20 Battle pets but aren't

Postby Gráinne » June 25th, 2017, 10:47 pm

Gilneas, what hate for Xu-Fu? Xu-Fu is a good pet. All 4 of those are good pets. The question is why they are in this list but not in the top strats list.

Flow, I agree there is massive confirmation bias in these rankings if the question is simply: of all possible species and breeds, what is the set of pets that would do the most efficient job across all PvE encounters? If we set a computer to brute-force that answer, I'm sure it would produce a very different list.

But that is not the question. There are several other things to consider when we talk about "best pets". Ease of acquisition is a factor. Certainty of breed is a factor. Likelihood of being found in a guide strat is a factor. Likelihood of being already in people's roster is a factor for people making guides. Ease of use is a factor - the tankiness to tolerate mistakes or bad RNG. If I'm advising a newcomer what pets to go for, these all come into consideration.

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Re: Pets that should be in the top 20 Battle pets but aren't

Postby Digem » June 26th, 2017, 7:30 am

Son of animus questionable? A mech pet with a heal and shield is questionable? Maybe for pvp but it still is a top mech pet for pve.

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Re: Pets that should be in the top 20 Battle pets but aren't

Postby Uduwudu » June 26th, 2017, 4:55 pm

Hi,

Weird ... I only used these rankings, on this website, as a GUIDE to the pets I should have in my collection, not because they are/aren't anything else. I do not PvP and thus do not specially spend time ranking the pets, knowing that there is a marked difference in the pet's utility in PvE and PvP, which means we should have 2 Top 20 lists?

I tend to think that too many of us just like favorites, and that's that. Heck, I use that Creepy Box on many fights, and would rate him very high ... but reading these discussions justifying their own opinions, is kinda like the Democrats and the Republicans having a discussion on a bar ... less filling ... tastes great ... and in the end, I don't care what the opinion is!

I'm simply making sure I have (AND CAN USE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) a reasonable selection of pets for the majority of the fights in the game. The rest, a comparison of the weewee discussions and the utility of the weewee is a bit beyond me, in all honesty.

Maybe at 66, those things are not as important? Can't even say I have a "favorite" pet!

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Re: Pets that should be in the top 20 Battle pets but aren't

Postby Ebil » June 27th, 2017, 11:02 am

Uduwudu wrote:Hi,

Weird ... I only used these rankings, on this website, as a GUIDE to the pets I should have in my collection, not because they are/aren't anything else. I do not PvP and thus do not specially spend time ranking the pets, knowing that there is a marked difference in the pet's utility in PvE and PvP, which means we should have 2 Top 20 lists?

I tend to think that too many of us just like favorites, and that's that. Heck, I use that Creepy Box on many fights, and would rate him very high ... but reading these discussions justifying their own opinions, is kinda like the Democrats and the Republicans having a discussion on a bar ... less filling ... tastes great ... and in the end, I don't care what the opinion is!

I'm simply making sure I have (AND CAN USE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) a reasonable selection of pets for the majority of the fights in the game. The rest, a comparison of the weewee discussions and the utility of the weewee is a bit beyond me, in all honesty.

Maybe at 66, those things are not as important? Can't even say I have a "favorite" pet!


I feel this way about a lot of PvE content. There are a lot of good pets that are not used because they are not on people's Top 20 List. My go to pets in Legion are Voodoo Figurine and Infected Squirrel, they work so well together.

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Re: Pets that should be in the top 20 Battle pets but aren't

Postby Abbotta » June 28th, 2017, 3:16 pm

Gráinne wrote:Paladance has the reason spot-on. How many pets have you rated, and when was the last time you adjusted your ratings to reflect current balance? :) A lot of people will have rated theirs quite a while ago, so changes don't get reflected. Any "popular vote" list over a long period will have some irrational skewing or bias by time.



I've been enjoying your comments along with the others posted here. I use the battle ratings to determine which pet to level next. But then I look at Wow Pet Guide and their laundry list of pets that will be commonly used in new pet battle areas/dungeons/etc - and I find many of those pets lower on the list simply because they are newer pets.

Reading these posts makes me venture to say that I'd love to see a reset on the Top 20 list each time WoW does a major release (ie - new game to purchase like BC or Legion). Wipe the slate clean and see if folks still feel the same way about their pets.

FYI - when I left Wow back about 18 months ago, I remember some of my go-to pets I used all the time included the Oily Slimeling, Pandaren Monk and Frostfur Rat. Now I barely recall using any of those 3 these past months because of how pets were nerfed/new pets/new pet battles. I remember spending countless hours leveling a Worgon just so I could get that stupid Gilnean Raven because everyone swore it was the pet to have and with the Worgon you had to take the time to level to 11 before you could get off Worgon newbie land. (I think that's why I started using the Frostfur Rat - he had some of the same battle skills of the Gilnean Raven). I had 2 Rapana Whelk because I swore they were the most awesomeness of the snails that could solve any pet battle out there!. Once I finished Celestials I rarely touch them.

BTW I do like the Family Familiar achievement - it's forcing me to take a new look at some of the pets I've ignored. Enchanted Broom - what an amazing pet!

And btw Ikky and Teroclaw Hatchling - I never bothered to level those pets after I obtained them. Felt they were junk

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Re: Pets that should be in the top 20 Battle pets but aren't

Postby Flow » June 29th, 2017, 1:14 pm

Interestingly, there are no magic or critters in the top 20 list. There are however six mechanicals and four dragonkins.


Abbotta wrote:And btw Ikky and Teroclaw Hatchling - I never bothered to level those pets after I obtained them. Felt they were junk


Ikky and Teroclaw may not be strong on first look, but they have abilities unique to the family, which can turn a battle when the circumstances are right. Ikky's claw + flock is very strong against bosses/single pet fights, and Teroclaw's hot-heal, also unique, will turn him into an elemental. Very useful when a mechanical comes in after an aqua/beast opponent or vice versa. The dodge he has isn't too shabby either.

Same with Jade Crane Chick. Boring abilities and the only available breed is a poor BB. But it's the only flying pet with a 5 round shield and that makes him immensely useful in my opinion.


Lately I've been putting together a top 5 list of each family, with focus on such unique abilities/combinations, and also not too hard to get (ie no Chi-Chi). It's for people who keep asking me "what pet should I level" so I have an answer. For flying I have:

- Ikky (bosses [claw + flock] )
- Jade Crane Chick (shield)
- Fledgling Warden Owl (weather change, antiheal, hard hitting [darkness + nocturnal] )
- Mechanical Axebreak (barrier, bonus damage beastfamily)
- Teroclaw Hatchling (dodge, transform)

With honorable mention to Royal Peachick (antistun [arcane storm], team speed, feign death)

Since there are no magic or critters in the top 20 list maybe a list per family would be useful?
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Re: Pets that should be in the top 20 Battle pets but aren't

Postby Paladance » June 30th, 2017, 1:53 am

Abbotta wrote:Reading these posts makes me venture to say that I'd love to see a reset on the Top 20 list each time WoW does a major release (ie - new game to purchase like BC or Legion). Wipe the slate clean and see if folks still feel the same way about their pets.

I'm afraid that it would be a bit discouraging to rate -- there's enough of "every new expansion" ingame. Not gonna complain, however. How about top 10 lists of each expansion up from MoP (appearance may apply up from classic)?
Flow wrote:Since there are no magic or critters in the top 20 list maybe a list per family would be useful?

I don't wanna turn it into a joke, but try to create such a list for aquatic pets. Even top 5 would be close. ;)
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Re: Pets that should be in the top 20 Battle pets but aren't

Postby Theejackal » July 9th, 2017, 7:45 am

Paladance wrote: Graves are on the top rather than the others.


About how long would it take to get to lvl 20 on Hero's of the Storm to get Graves?

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Re: Pets that should be in the top 20 Battle pets but aren't

Postby Drlambda » July 10th, 2017, 5:50 am

Theejackal wrote:
Paladance wrote: Graves are on the top rather than the others.


About how long would it take to get to lvl 20 on Hero's of the Storm to get Graves?


When they consolidated the levels a few weeks ago, it became way easier to get. I have him, and i only played HotS on three LAN parties over the last year or so.


From a PVP perspective:
Pets that should be in the top 20 but aren't: Teroclaw Hatchling, Bone Serpent, Wicked Soul, Vengeful Porcupette, Jademist Dancer, a rabbit, Blossoming Ancient (sadly)
Should probably be there: Alpine Foxling, Ore Eater, Orphaned Felbat, Ghastly Kid
Pets that are in the top 20 that have no business being there: Xu-Fu, Chrominius, Pandaren Water Spirit, Darkmoon Tonk
Pets that are in the top 20 that are questionable: Graves, Darkmoon Zeppelin, Gilnean Raven (not even close to being the best Darkness bird nowadays) - they're all quite strong, but the top 20 is a very short list
CloseToZero - Watch me lose on youtube with bad pets! :D


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