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Always first?

Discuss pet battles, strategy and theorycrafting.
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Maiyin
 
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Always first?

Postby Maiyin » April 12th, 2017, 10:17 am

Hiya!
This might be a silly question, but my boyfriend, who doesn't really do petbattles, asked me today, what happens, if you use two moves, that are labeled "always first" against each other, like Deflection vs Surge. And I don't know, I don't think I have ever encountered that. Can anyone answer? :D

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Ranok
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Re: Always first?

Postby Ranok » April 12th, 2017, 1:44 pm

I've heard that it then becomes random which pet goes first. More RNG to make pet battles "interesting".

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Peanutty
 
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Re: Always first?

Postby Peanutty » April 12th, 2017, 7:53 pm

It's not random, what using something like Surge does is there's a baked in momentary speed increase to allow the move to go first. There's either a set number, or a set percentage, that it adds to the speed stat (not completely sure which).

If 2 pets with identical stats after boost face off, the game does "flip a coin" to decide which goes first, and you can see that being calculated when your pet's icon in the upper left corner flashes - during the coin flip both your pet and the opponent pet will flash until the game decides who actually gets to go first, after which the winning pet will continue flashing a little longer.

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Gráinne
 
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Re: Always first?

Postby Gráinne » April 13th, 2017, 12:26 am

It is indeed not random.

Vakeetah did an exposition of the logic here:

https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/top ... 780#post-4

Vakeetah wrote:Did the math some time ago, as I noticed the lower level pets weren't "surging" first. What these moves do is adding a flat amount of speed, usually massive, which is what makes them "go first".

This value is exactly [500 x Level]. Since it's just a flat value added to regular speed, in the case of two pets using a priority move at the same time, the one who was naturally faster will still execute its move first.

But there's more, because Rarity also factors in, with the same multipliers as for base stats - Poor: 1.0x, Common: 1.1x, Uncommon: 1.2x, Rare: 1.3x, Epic: 1.4x and Legendary 1.5x. For reference, for a Rare level 25, that's +16250.

As a result, even if your Rare pet is faster than a Boss epic/legendary, and both of you use a priority move, theirs will still go first because of the humongous multiplier.

EDIT: Apparently this only applies to Surge and Ethereal!
Charge, Quick Attack, Trihorn Charge only gain 10% of this bonus (so 50 x level rather than 500), resulting in +1625. Way less "first" than the other "firsts"!


Lastly, other speed modifiers, such as Flying, Adrenaline Rush, etc. also apply to the priority speed.

So, for example, a pet that is under the effect of Dazzling Dance (+25%) will get a +20312 bonus; so even if it was still slower than your pet (despite their bonus) the multiplier will certainly make their priority move go first.

This is more of a curious fact, but could be arguably useful if you find yourself using Surge against someone who has Ethereal, or something! :3

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Uduwudu
 
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Re: Always first?

Postby Uduwudu » April 15th, 2017, 9:15 am

Hi,

I keep thinking that the chances that two pets will both have the same starting number, is not likely and that the programmers will probably safeguard against that, since it might interfere with the ability to succeed, in the long run. I kinda think that the majority of pets have a number, and regardless of the opponents, they will stand up ... like trying to take that turkey in Dalaran, that almost one shots you right at the start ... it doesn't care if you are fast or slow, he will always gets his shot in and if you are not prepared ... close the fight now!

For some pets, like Anubiseth, it is only a matter of a few hit points, and they are not major usually. Sandstorm gives some of it back. Same thing with the Whelks. Against the Murlocs, I prefer to go 2nd so I know the sequence and the order and will be prepared for the newbie at the right time, and have the shell and dive when the jumping turkey wants to take off. You know right away which key to press and the continuing strategy. AND, sometimes, that is much easier than to have guess things, as would likely be the case in PvP, where I would imagine that everyone wants a big/fast one right at the start?

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Peanutty
 
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Re: Always first?

Postby Peanutty » April 15th, 2017, 1:09 pm

Uduwudu wrote:Hi,

I keep thinking that the chances that two pets will both have the same starting number, is not likely and that the programmers will probably safeguard against that, since it might interfere with the ability to succeed, in the long run. I kinda think that the majority of pets have a number, and regardless of the opponents, they will stand up ... like trying to take that turkey in Dalaran, that almost one shots you right at the start ... it doesn't care if you are fast or slow, he will always gets his shot in and if you are not prepared ... close the fight now!


Actually it happens more often than you think, most people just don't notice. There's a relatively small batch of numbers possible for each stat based on their weight system and so the chances of the speeds being identical for 2 pets facing off is actually pretty decent. PVP is the most obvious place you'll see this.

As I already explained above, there is a "coin flip" mechanic in place for when both pets have identical speed stats. There is no "safeguard," it's just random chance at that point whether your "always first" move actually goes first.

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Cluey
 
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Re: Always first?

Postby Cluey » May 3rd, 2017, 11:47 pm

Peanutty wrote:
Uduwudu wrote:Hi,

I keep thinking that the chances that two pets will both have the same starting number, is not likely and that the programmers will probably safeguard against that, since it might interfere with the ability to succeed, in the long run. I kinda think that the majority of pets have a number, and regardless of the opponents, they will stand up ... like trying to take that turkey in Dalaran, that almost one shots you right at the start ... it doesn't care if you are fast or slow, he will always gets his shot in and if you are not prepared ... close the fight now!


Actually it happens more often than you think, most people just don't notice. There's a relatively small batch of numbers possible for each stat based on their weight system and so the chances of the speeds being identical for 2 pets facing off is actually pretty decent. PVP is the most obvious place you'll see this.

As I already explained above, there is a "coin flip" mechanic in place for when both pets have identical speed stats. There is no "safeguard," it's just random chance at that point whether your "always first" move actually goes first.

This. ^

The number of base stats is quite disappointing really, very little diversity between all the rabbits and hares out there. Then there are a heap of mongoose or mongoose pup which are all the same too.
Of the rabbits the one I use most often is the S/B Elfin Rabbit, it's fast enough for most things but has a bit more power and health. If you need a S/S rabbit you've probably got half a dozen alternatives.
The next most used rabbit is the H/P Arctic Hare as it has the highest power of all the rabbit family.

I think it would be nice if they were all slightly different, sure it would give a few of us conniptions but we'd work out which one we wanted and go and get it!

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Vakeetah
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Re: Always first?

Postby Vakeetah » May 5th, 2017, 12:43 pm

Cluey wrote:Of the rabbits the one I use most often is the S/B Elfin Rabbit, it's fast enough for most things but has a bit more power and health. If you need a S/S rabbit you've probably got half a dozen alternatives.
The next most used rabbit is the H/P Arctic Hare as it has the highest power of all the rabbit family.

Technically speaking, the highest power for rabbits is in the hands of Grasslands Cottontail I believe.

On its H/P version, it goes as high as 289; and even on its S/S variant, it still has a little more power while keeping a respectable 325 speed (compared to the 292 of your Arctic Hare). Definitely recommended!
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