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search: strongest against, vs. calculated abilities

Discuss pet battles, strategy and theorycrafting.
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Technodruid
 
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search: strongest against, vs. calculated abilities

Postby Technodruid » December 10th, 2016, 1:04 pm

Hi all!
I've been actively looking at this site for awhile now.
I started to collect a few of the pets based upon advice here,
and stumbled upon an issue with calculations, hence the post here in the forums.

I'm hoping someone can answer my quesiton, AND if anyone can give me advice on what I should get.
frankly i love my dragons...lol

I do a search based upon 'strong against', and I see the results, but i question it,
only because of the calculations, and the fact that I'm probably not getting all the answers correctly,
and again, that's why i'm asking this forum.

example, when I do a search based upon strong against flying,
here's one: onyxian-whelpling he has a battle rating of: 3.81
but when I look at his abilities, I see only the Lift-Off with +50 stat against flying which has 769.5 damage

I have the Harpy Youngling, with a battle rating of: 3.08.
and using Lift-Off, with +50 stat against flying only has 666,
so 100 hit points less,

BUT,

the harpy youngling.. also has 2 other attack abilities against the aquatic, whereas the onyxian-whelpling has 1.
and see, its a 4 round cool off, so wouldn't the harpy youngling be a better choice?

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Peanutty
 
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Re: search: strongest against, vs. calculated abilities

Postby Peanutty » December 10th, 2016, 1:37 pm

I think you're confused as to what those "Battle ratings" actually mean. Just like "Appearance rating" it's a number assigned by the users of this site who choose to participate by giving their opinion on what they think of the abilities. So think of it as an appearance rating for what the abilities look like overall.

It does not mean that pet A hits harder than pet B, or heals harder, or works better in a specific situation (i.e. on a certain tamer), or better in PVP - though as a general rule the most popular, most recommended pets do get the highest ranks. But the number is just the average based on how many stars users gave it. There's nothing that requires them to have used the pet before or to even have it in their collection, I believe.

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Re: search: strongest against, vs. calculated abilities

Postby Paladance » December 10th, 2016, 2:16 pm

Peanutty wrote:There's nothing that requires them to have used the pet before or to even have it in their collection, I believe.

Squirky has already got battle rating even though none has obtained or played him yet. :lol:

Rumours say that you can't change your vote once cast, but I don't find this true. :) After all, the battle performance can be changed with time, as we've seen with Fluxfire Feline, Pandaren Water Spirit, foxes or Blood Boil… And there was a model update for various creatures aswell.
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Biscuit
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Re: search: strongest against, vs. calculated abilities

Postby Biscuit » December 10th, 2016, 3:13 pm

Paladance wrote:you can't change your vote once cast


Off-topic, but this line made me think of something I've been stumped on.
How the heck do you change your forum avatar pet after you've already selected one?
I grow rather weary of my FoA.

On-topic, Peanutty basically summed it up for you.
Pay no attention at all to the battle ratings.

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Re: search: strongest against, vs. calculated abilities

Postby Technodruid » December 10th, 2016, 3:33 pm

Peanutty wrote:I think you're confused as to what those "Battle ratings" actually mean.


yep, mostly forgot what it was all about: based upon experience and a median...

so then can I ask 2 questions?
first is, in your opinion, would you still go with the "Onyxian Whelpling" with the 1 higher hitting? but 4 turns?
or the Harpy Youngling, with 3 abilities with +50% ???

other than obvious experience, is there a rule that's unknown?
1 higher hitting +50% = 2 lower hitting +50%??

also, would anyone be so kind as to give advice on which pets I should level???

WP = warcraft pets,
## = the current level its at
x3 = the number of abilities that it has to attack with...

aquatic
WP - [Nether Faerie Dragon] x2+1
05 - WP - [Son of Sethe]
WP - [Spawn of Onyxia] x 1+1

beast
08 - WP - [Clockwork Gnome] x 2 + 1
05 - WP - [Son of Sethe] x 1
08 - WP - [Stormborne Whelpling] x 1
08 - WP - [Ore Eater] x 1 + 1
01 - WP - [Fluxfire Feline]
01 - WP - [darkmoon-tonk] X 3 --- JUST GOT IT LAST NIGHT!

critter
08 - WP - [Clockwork Gnome]
01 - WP - [Son of Sethe]
08 - WP - [Stormborne Whelpling]

dragonkin
WP - [Unborn Val'kyr]
08 - WP- [Clockwork Gnome] x 1
01 - WP- [Sunborne Val'kyr] x 3

elemental
WP - [Rapana Whelk] x 1
08 - WP - [Ore Eater] x 2
[Strand Crab] x 2+1
[Benax] x 2
[Kelp Scuttler] x 2
[Rapana Whelk] x 1

flying
08 - WP - [Chrominius] x 2
WP - [Emerald Proto-Whelp] x 1
WP - [Nexus Whelpling] x 2
WP - [Nether Faerie Dragon] x 2+1
03 - WP - [Celestial Dragon] x 2
WP - [Rapana Whelk] x 1

humanoid
WP - [Unborn Val'kyr] x 3
WP - [Scourged Whelpling] x 2
03 - WP - [Zandalari Anklerender]
WP - [Rapana Whelk] x 1
05 - WP - [Son of Sethe] x 1

magic
08 - WP - [Chrominius]
WP - [Emerald Proto-Whelp] x 2+1
WP - [Nexus Whelpling] x 1+2
08 - WP - [Clockwork Gnome]
WP - [Nether Faerie Dragon]
WP - [Scourged Whelpling] x 1

mechanical
08 - WP - [Clockwork Gnome] x 1
12 - WP - [Molten Corgi] X 2+1
WP - [Fel Flame] x 3
03 - WP - [Celestial Dragon] x 1

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Paladance
 
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Re: search: strongest against, vs. calculated abilities

Postby Paladance » December 10th, 2016, 4:51 pm

I guess this post should be interesting for you. :)

But besides Family Familiar you don't need to keep an eye on every pet with a specific damage type, especially considering a fact that there are also other features worth using. The double countering is quite popular, for example, but there's also basing a whole team on a specific feature, be it yours or opponent's (like a need to control and use the weather) or preparing a response (such as avoidance) for every significant move that is expected. And that's just a generalization omitting the subject of PvP.

And there are cooldowns. What to say about a Harbinger of Flame, for example, that against critters has an effective CD and ineffective other stuff? That kind of mix doesn't seem very fortunate unless again, we're talking about PvP (not addressing this particular pet because that's out of the meta, the others know which one :P),

@Biscuit, see the "Profile Pic" setting under your profile management.

[A post of the Beast? Oh no! :evil:]
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Re: search: strongest against, vs. calculated abilities

Postby Peanutty » December 10th, 2016, 6:08 pm

Technodruid wrote:
Peanutty wrote:I think you're confused as to what those "Battle ratings" actually mean.


yep, mostly forgot what it was all about: based upon experience and a median...

so then can I ask 2 questions?
first is, in your opinion, would you still go with the "Onyxian Whelpling" with the 1 higher hitting? but 4 turns?
or the Harpy Youngling, with 3 abilities with +50% ???

other than obvious experience, is there a rule that's unknown?
1 higher hitting +50% = 2 lower hitting +50%??


Simply put, there is no magic rule. In this specific case (Onyxian vs Harpy) to say which I'd use, I'd also need to consider:

1) What is the opponent's composition? Is the Onyxian or harpy racially weak (or strong) against a particular opponent that I'm facing?

2) What are the breeds of my pets (Harpy has 2 breeds)? In this case there's not many breeds to consider but some pets have up to 10 breeds and it makes a huge difference which one(s) you have to work with.

3) What are the other possible moves I need to consider? This isn't so straightforward as pets have up to 6 abilities to choose from (up to, since Boneshard has 3x BONESTORM lol). A more powerful attack is not always the one you want. Some moves have side benefits or may not be optimal in each situation. Take an H/B harpy's Quills - even if her Quills hit harder than let's say, Everbloom Peachick's (146 vs 140 dmg), the peachick would actually be better in many cases because the flying racial gives it more opportunity to land the extra hit, which is far more valuable than an extra 6 dmg.

4) Do I have a personal preference? I've never used my harpy, not because it's a good or bad pet, but I haven't had a need to use it. I do like using dragon whelps because they tend to be powerful and straightforward and the Onyxian has a side benefit of possibly being able to burst heal itself, though the harpy would passively heal a small amount each turn.

And now that I made your head spin by overcomplicating things ;) I think you're making it hard to choose what pets to level by only looking at direct attack abilities. I assume your list is... the number of abilities strong against a particular family type? That's not the way most people look at it, I think. My advice (and others might disagree) is to level a few pets from each family to have an overall group that can handle most beginning/intermediate challenges (things like Celestial Tournament and An Awfully Big Adventure are considered advanced, I'd say, as they favor players with a much larger stable). That said, from your list, pets *I* use with some frequency would be:

01 - WP - [darkmoon-tonk] X 3
03 - WP - [Zandalari Anklerender]
WP - [Emerald Proto-Whelp] x 2+1
WP - [Nexus Whelpling] x 1+2
WP - [Fel Flame] x 3

That doesn't mean they're ideal for all situations (and you'll notice for some categories I chose nothing) but I use all these a lot.
Last edited by Peanutty on December 11th, 2016, 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: search: strongest against, vs. calculated abilities

Postby Gráinne » December 10th, 2016, 7:21 pm

I would refer you to this thread for a related question, and especially this post: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16391#p131412

I usually overcomplicate things, but since Peanutty has kindly done my job for me in this thread :) I will keep it short and just suggest my priority list of your most urgent pets to level, in order:

Chrominius (you're gunna love Howl/Surge of Power :))
Molten Corgi (because Superbark is great for taming pets)
Clockwork Gnome
Darkmoon Tonk
Zandalari Anklerender (yours is a P/B. good)

Your Green level 19 Emerald Proto Whelp is a P/P breed. Hang on to it! When you get it to Blue, it will be an amazing team tank for you, and it would belong near the top of your levelling list. I'd say it's worth levelling now, and will serve you well, even as Green quality.

Your Green level 22 Nexus Whelpling is a P/S breed. That's not bad, but while you're still in the stage of your career where Blue stones are rare, I'd hold out for a P/P before using a Blue stone.

I would definitely be hunting for an Anubisath Idol, by farming Ahn'Qiraj or on the Auction House. Its drop chance is about 10%, so depending how many characters you have, it may be worth trying to get it for yourself. As soon as you get it, move it to the top of the levelling list.

I would definitely be scouring the Briny Muck to find and tame a Blue P/P Emperor Crab.

I would certainly be heading to Talador to pick up a Teroclaw Hatchling from its nest, and levelling it ASAP. Top of the list.

Until you have the Idol, that leaves us a little weak on Humanoids. Your Ore Eater is a P/P, which is the beat breed for PvE. It's not the easiest pet to use as a beginner, but it's very strong. Your Spore Sproutling is a H/B, which is not bad, and it's already 20, so you could level that until you have your Idol, but maybe you have enough to do.

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Re: search: strongest against, vs. calculated abilities

Postby Peanutty » December 11th, 2016, 2:57 am

Gráinne wrote:I usually overcomplicate things, but since Peanutty has kindly done my job for me in this thread :)


Oh my, have I turned into "one of those" people? :lol:

Gráinne wrote:Zandalari Anklerender (yours is a P/B. good)

Your Green level 19 Emerald Proto Whelp is a P/P breed. Hang on to it! When you get it to Blue, it will be an amazing team tank for you, and it would belong near the top of your levelling list. I'd say it's worth levelling now, and will serve you well, even as Green quality.

Your Green level 22 Nexus Whelpling is a P/S breed. That's not bad, but while you're still in the stage of your career where Blue stones are rare, I'd hold out for a P/P before using a Blue stone.


Quoting as these are all examples of breed + personal preference as mentioned before (OP didn't note what breeds they had, and I didn't bother going to look).

I have all 4 Zandalari raptors with differing breeds. I heavily use my S/S Kneebiter and P/P Anklerender and spent a lot of time collecting breeds until I had the ones I wanted. I think with these pets personal preference dictates what breed spread you want to have - maybe someone would agree my set up is "ideal" but others would say their choice of breed on these is better.

On the other hand I'd say it's pretty agreed upon that P/P is the preferred breed on Emerald Proto Whelp and Nexus Whelpling. I used to have a P/S Emerald Proto Whelp and the massive difference breed makes in both attack power and healing power on this pet is really striking, it's hard to describe the difference until you try it yourself.

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Re: search: strongest against, vs. calculated abilities

Postby Gráinne » December 11th, 2016, 3:09 pm

Peanutty wrote:Oh my, have I turned into "one of those" people? :lol:

Nah, you're clearly still safe.

But if you ever do find yourself eyeing the pulse in someone's neck and thinking that looks tasty, or see yourself a bit faint in a mirror, you'll be welcome on the Dark Side. We still like cookies. :)

Peanutty wrote:Quoting as these are all examples of breed + personal preference as mentioned before (OP didn't note what breeds they had, and I didn't bother going to look).

Certain breeds are objectively better for specific strats. P/P Anklerender is the only breed that can reliably execute the fastest strat for Aki, for example, though any Anklerender can be used. OTOH, in a battle where you definitely have to go first, the S/S may succeed where all others fail. So the question then becomes which strats you use, and which breed is better in more of them.

With some pets with one definitely strongest moveset, it's hard to argue that alternate breeds are better. The Nex and EPW definitely benefit from P/P. The Emperor Crab works best as P/P as well, though I acquired a H/H to use to help counter the Undead AoE of the Graves meta. Vakeetah did a wonderful chart of the relative performance of the various breeds of Bone Serpent.

I now solve this one by keeping multiple breeds of some pets, like the Zandalaris. However, for someone just developing their roster, when stones are scarce and levelling takes a lot of time, the question is which breed to spend your precious stones and time on first.

I had to throw out many pets I had spent time developing when I did my Great Cleanout. That hurt. My roster was better for it, but it wasn't a lot of fun. I think it's a kindness to let new people know that in the long run breed matters more than quality when first captured, and which breeds they will not regret developing.

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Re: search: strongest against, vs. calculated abilities

Postby Technodruid » December 11th, 2016, 4:11 pm

Thank you all for your help! I really appreciate it!
I just updated my list on the website,
and I have started to level up these ones, mostly from advice from here,
or the fact i love dragons, or because they're awesome to look at, like the sunborne val'kyr

celestial Dragon,
ore eater,
son of sethe,
lil' tarecgosa,
clockwork gnome,-
sunborne val'kyr
fluxfire feline,
darkmoon tonk,
zandalari anklerender,
chrominus,
molten corgi,

I will keep my eyes out for the Anubisath Idol in AH,
I'll hunt for the emperor crab, and the teroclaw hatchling,
and will also level up my spore sproutling!

I just got two pets: Nightmare Lasher, and the Firebat Pup.
are they worth leveling up, or focus on the others first?

with regards to the emerald proto whelp and nexus whelpling.. *sigh* I spent a lot of time finding them,
so back to either AH for the P/P or hunt for more AFTER I level the others.

thanks so much for your help!!!

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Re: search: strongest against, vs. calculated abilities

Postby Peanutty » December 11th, 2016, 5:20 pm

Gráinne wrote:Certain breeds are objectively better for specific strats. P/P Anklerender is the only breed that can reliably execute the fastest strat for Aki, for example, though any Anklerender can be used. OTOH, in a battle where you definitely have to go first, the S/S may succeed where all others fail. So the question then becomes which strats you use, and which breed is better in more of them.


As I use a different strat for Aki I've never looked into what specific Zandalari would be best for it. Overall I think I tend to use S/S Kneebiter far more than the others, the speed does become a huge factor in making sure you can get in both rounds of hunting party. But this just illustrates the point that with some pets, personal preference really does play a big role.

Gráinne wrote:I had to throw out many pets I had spent time developing when I did my Great Cleanout. That hurt. My roster was better for it, but it wasn't a lot of fun. I think it's a kindness to let new people know that in the long run breed matters more than quality when first captured, and which breeds they will not regret developing.


Me too... and it was painful, with some pets that I really struggled to get a rare of, to have to just release it and stone a poor "new" version in a different breed. In the long run it was the right thing to do, but when that moment of clarity happens and you realize you spent a lot of time hunting and leveling pets that aren't optimal/as good as they could be, it kind of makes you cringe.

Technodruid wrote:I just got two pets: Nightmare Lasher, and the Firebat Pup.
are they worth leveling up, or focus on the others first?


Nightmare Lasher is surprisingly good IMO. What it excels at is fights where the opponent pet(s) are healing heavily, the combination of Nightmare and Call Darkness really nerfs any healing the other side can do. So it's not an all around pet, but if you ever get into a tamer battle where one of the gimmicks is high healing, it's a pretty good pet to use to counter that.

Firebat Pup is nothing special IMO as nothing in its moveset synergizes and you'd need other pets to help maximize its abilities.

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Re: search: strongest against, vs. calculated abilities

Postby Gráinne » December 11th, 2016, 5:25 pm

I loved dragons too when I started. I had a Spawn of Onyxia in my first levelling team that never let me down. :) With time, I cams to see that other pets had their good points as well. :)

Celestial Dragon is a good one. It's often underrated, but it can be crazy-strong.

The EPW and the Nex are available only from capturing, not from the AH.

As I said, your EPW is ideal. You can earn or buy stones that will make it Blue-quality. Those stones are hard to come by at the moment, but as you get into more high-level content, you will get lots of them! Just hang onto it. Even as Green, it will be very strong at 25, and once you can spare a Blue stone for it, it becomes near-immortal. Keep Emerald Presence up at all times, use Emerald Dream when at half-health, and attack whenever you don't need to do one of those. It's a rock.

I see that Peanutty has already addressed Nightmare Lasher and Firebat Pup, and I agree. Perfectly decent pets, but I would not prioritise them at this stage.

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Re: search: strongest against, vs. calculated abilities

Postby Uduwudu » December 13th, 2016, 8:28 am

Hi,

I, honestly, had always been suspicious of those numbers, and in reading things here, is how I found out how difficult it would be to rate these things for anything other than favoritism. It is, by far, the worst part of the world of the internet, that "favoritism" is changing how people think, and the problem with that is ... that most folks will get disappointed that the information is not right, and that the pet is the incorrect breed, or worse ... you had no cereal this morning, and the coffee was sick!

And if that was not an issue, it is kinda of naïve of us, to not think/believe that the folks at Blizzard are too dumb to not even look, at many of these boards and what the discussions are, and probably laugh at us, for so many things that are so far out of the way, it is not funny. Even worse than that, is that the ability is there for them to make notes and eventually make a change here and there on things. Many of the bomb and howl nerf's came upon the fact that most strategies everywhere were telling you to do this, and the fight was over ... kaboom ... nerf! It was true, though ... it was too easy, so now you have to work to get Christoph VonFeasel down ... and get nothing for it!

I'm even concerned with the Pet Breed thing, and I have a feeling that these will end up hidden and taken out at some time, because the difference in the same pet in both cases is crazy, and the results are insane, and they do not justify having 8 or 9 different rabbits, for example, in the game. This, would actually be OK with me, as it might clean up so much of the duplicity and worthless number of pets that no one will ever use.

I appreciate the versatility, but I would like to see it used and not wasted ... is all I'm really saying. When it comes down to it, 80% of our pets have never seen the light of the day ... and that is stupid and a waste in the game, and all it's doing is taking up database/spreadsheet space ... and memory in your computer, I'm sure!

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Re: search: strongest against, vs. calculated abilities

Postby Technodruid » December 13th, 2016, 9:02 am

Uduwudu wrote:Hi,

I, honestly, had always been suspicious of those numbers, and in reading things here, is how I found out how difficult it would be to rate these things for anything other than favoritism.

And if that was not an issue, it is kinda of naïve of us, to not think/believe that the folks at Blizzard are too dumb to not even look, at many of these boards and what the discussions are, and probably laugh at us, for so many things that are so far out of the way, it is not funny.

I appreciate the versatility, but I would like to see it used and not wasted ... is all I'm really saying. When it comes down to it, 80% of our pets have never seen the light of the day ... and that is stupid and a waste in the game, and all it's doing is taking up database/spreadsheet space ... and memory in your computer, I'm sure!


See, when you start to analyze the numbers, and I know the "hard core" pet battlers do, you come to realise, that blizzard has put favoritism in a "few special pets", and ignored the "natural animals that you collect. There needs to be some kind of randomness / algorithm with regards to the pet battling system, but there isn't. with the billions? that blizzard made, you'd think they would create, but they're just greedy. I'm a Systems enginner, and without really trying to anyalyze, I can already tell that the pet battle system is just a glorified chess game, with no "true uniqueness" at all. all you need to win, is memorize the abilities and the stats and that's it. *yawn*

So for me? i'll just be enjoying the levelling, playing against the "trainers" quests, and that's it, i'm done with it. This website was really useful for me. so i'm glad I found it: showed me not to waist too much time on this battle pet system.

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Re: search: strongest against, vs. calculated abilities

Postby Edmuir » December 13th, 2016, 10:21 am

Only a few short months ago I was in your same shoes (I started playing WoW 9/16). The suggestions you've been given so far are excellent. I'd pretty much agree with Grainne's list for early leveling. I can confirm that your green P/P EPW is still a house and will wreck many things until you get a stone for him. Be patient though in getting those P/P breeds for your dragons as the stones will start showing up quite frequently by the time you get to WoD content. They're (dragons that is) almost always going 2nd (except the Nether Faerie Dragon which should be on your team as a S/S for Life Exchange and Evanescence) so the P/P is where you want to be I think.

Push for the Safari Hat and the old content dailies. Those dailies, even the EK, Kalimdor, Outlands, Cata and Northrend Grand Masters will produce plenty of stones for your team and once you make WoD and get a garrison running, you probably won't worry so much about catching rares. You'll simply grab the proper breed and throw a stone on him that you already have, or farm one within 24 hours (or much less).

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Re: search: strongest against, vs. calculated abilities

Postby Gráinne » December 13th, 2016, 12:28 pm

Technodruid, I hit the "chess" realisation quite some time ago. It doesn't bother me. There are no widely-played turn-based games that aren't susceptible to calculation. The top humans have fallen to chess computers, and now Go as well.

Along with chess, there's an element of RNG - I'd say about the right amount at the moment, though arguably could be shifted around a bit. I think their removal of damage ranges turns out to have been a backwards move.

Tamer battles are like chess puzzles. There is a well defined answer for each - several of them, in fact.

PvP is rather like chess with a bit of poker. There is a very distinct element of guessing what your opponent is going to do next - "is he going to Dodge this turn, or should I use my nuke?"

As for duplicate movesets, yeah there are a lot of them. IIRC, there are about 600 unique pet movesets, though, which is plenty. You can consider the others as being for flavour if you like.

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Re: search: strongest against, vs. calculated abilities

Postby Biscuit » December 13th, 2016, 1:00 pm

It's more like an incredibly intricate form of rock, paper, scissors.

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Re: search: strongest against, vs. calculated abilities

Postby Technodruid » December 13th, 2016, 1:08 pm

Biscuit wrote:It's more like an incredibly intricate form of rock, paper, scissors.

LOL! ok. i'll buy that one!
needed the laugh. thanks!

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Re: search: strongest against, vs. calculated abilities

Postby Peanutty » December 13th, 2016, 4:49 pm

Apologies if my overanalyzing turned you off to this mini game, but while at the core pet battling is pretty simple and straighforward, like most simple games there's little intricacies and nuances that neither numbers nor guides can show you, you just have to immerse yourself in it to find out.

This is why I encourage people to not follow guides, at least not past a certain point (I'll grant that for new players, this all must seem overwhelming). Flexibility is a good thing. It's also why I enjoy the current Family Familiar achieve (well, in theory... as the damn trainers I need won't spawn!! :evil: ) - it made me think outside the box a little bit and try out pets that I had otherwise ignored.

"Hardcore" pet battling/collecting isn't for everyone, obviously, and if you enjoy some aspects of pet battles but not others, yeah, by all means, don't force yourself to do stuff you don't like! I unfortunately have a OCD/hording type personality so once I got sucked in, it was too late for me. :oops:

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