Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

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Vevy
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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Post by Vevy » June 17th, 2015, 10:39 am

Myon wrote:Someone else, I forget who, mentioned the Slithershock Elver as a pretty effective pet as well, and it's aquatic to boot which is always welcome in this undead heavy metagame.

Open with Clobber and you will nail the RI'd pet - the beauty of this is that if they call your bluff and don't use RI, they're now stunned for turn 2 and you can follow up with Grasp to lock Murkalot in for good and shut down any RI > AoE shenanigans. There is no way for the Murkalot user to get around this, and it shuts down the turn 1: RI, turn 2: Bonestorm gameplan completely.

Of course it doesn't mean you now magically counter Murkalot/Graves teams or something (if they play on autopilot they will choke I suppose), it just means they have to think a little harder and be open to changing their gameplan a little. It's still going to be a slog, but that's just how it is against highly optimized teams.
Haha. This is another smart gotcha counter to Murk shenanigans Yea Slithershock has an interesting move set that I am tempted to use for its defense. I have rarely seen a situation where I would want Grasp over something that causes more damage, but you've brought up a really smart use for that spell. I might have underestimated the defensive utility of Grasp.

I've been using Spawn of G'nathus more than the Elver and the Emperor Crab as my experimental aquatic vs undead as it has that tantalizing AoE. Since the Lil' XTs have appeared, it is enabling me to have some + mechanical damage.

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Happygilmore
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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Post by Happygilmore » June 17th, 2015, 11:25 am

Vevy wrote:
Happygilmore wrote:On a side note i have a funny counter to inspiration/aoe combo, Lovebird Hatchling, Stun on the switch then pheromones or switch to counter. Stun in general is a good way to stop the bonus damage, however it still leaves you with a bunch of guys to kill.
Interesting. Yea stuns have some upside in the current meta if you can shut down a big damage turn. The awkward thing about a stun is that it offers the AoE skills a round to cool down. Obviously in your example, you are doing it before Graves even casts so his cooldowns don't gain anything from it (worst case, Murk gets off a second Righteous Inspiration).

I only mention this because when I use Graves or Frag of Anger, I am usually happy if I can eke out one more AoE attack. For Graves, I feel successful if I manage two Bonestorms and one Grave Destruction. When I play against Graves, I am aiming to kill him before he has had a chance to case the second Bonestorm. So while a stun is an innovative way to address Murk/Graves openers, I am skeptical about the value of a stun once Graves has already initiated his first AoE cooldown.
The other counter is better, but i don't have access to it. S/S nightshade using lash, heal, blinding poison. the problem is that graves has both large hp and is undead. Combine that with 2 aoes and u have a real metagame issue.

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Post by Awq » June 17th, 2015, 4:23 pm

I've been running my standard Ghostwolf team all evening. I assume that it counters Graves. I want to test it, but sadly I havent met a Graves yet.

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Post by Vevy » June 17th, 2015, 5:22 pm

Happygilmore wrote:The other counter is better, but i don't have access to it. S/S nightshade using lash, heal, blinding poison. the problem is that graves has both large hp and is undead. Combine that with 2 aoes and u have a real metagame issue.
I love that S/S Nightshade Sproutling...I always use him with Call Darkness so I had tunnelvisioned away from using the heal. Been experimenting today and it works pretty well.

Happygilmore, I have an extra S/S that I might be interested in trading if you are interested and have anything that I need.

After a week and a half of experimenting, if I had to fight Graves one-on-one in a vacuum, I would use a pet with Flurry. Flurry and Flank are the best damage counters I've found to undead. Assuming you outspeed the undead, if you roll multiple- triple flurries, you can proc their passive in three turns.

After experimenting a lot with foxes and skunks with flurry and a Vengeful Porcupette with Flank, I've settled, instead, on a P/B Mana Wyrmling. The Mana Wyrmling is one of the few non-beast pets with Flurry and it also has a second skill that hard counters Graves AoEs: Drain Power. Assuming Graves casts his AoEs on turn one and two, using a Mana Wyrmling and opening with Drain Power, you reduce Graves first AoEs and you almost ensure that you kill him in three turns preventing him from getting off a second Bonestorm.

Outside of a one-on-one vacuum, the Wyrmling shines when it attacks first and suffers when it does not. Flurry is awful against humans and shields and useless against humans with shields. To counter this weakness, I could take Mana Surge in the third slot but that spell is such a commitment and Deflection is one of the best avoidance spells in the game.

tl;dr
The problem with Graves is not whether you can kill him or not, but whether you can efficiently kill him while also mitiating the damage that he does to your backline. Mana Wyrmlings own a Graves player that opens Bonestorm into Grave Destruction but suffer against shielding, humans, and faster creatures. I still haven't decided if I can run the Wyrmling and be competitive against non-Graves teams. I'm having decent success but in games that I lose, I feel the Wyrmling is gimping me.

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Post by Chibimage » June 19th, 2015, 8:12 am

It's fun to build a counter to team to one pet -- but you wake up with so many vulnerabilities that you lose every other opponent you come across. People are also obsessed with gigantic damage bursts but I've won countless games against those teams with a "slow and steady wins the race" plan.

I know Blizzard has stated publicly that we do not have "battlegroups" for pet battle pvp - and that we pool from the entire Region, but I am suspect of that claim, because whenever I pvp, I *never* see Ghastly Kids or Teroclaw Hatchlings, like ever. That isn't my meta on Stormrage.

And really, if you run with Graves and see a lot of them, pack a bunny. A bunny is your best anti-undead friend.

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Post by Tekulve2012 » June 20th, 2015, 6:32 am

A team i run with to counter Graves and his undead pals is:
s/s Nightshade sproutling-lash-darkness-blinding poison
p/b Alpine foxling-flurry-crouch-dazzling dance

and any 3rd pet based on your meta's usual suspects---frag of anger/fjord worg pup/jademist dancer (for Rags and Teroclaw)

I like the Mana wymling idea posted here earlier and a fast slithershock elver has also been fun..

But if you are facing 3 undead...i suggest an h/h Huge toad as a 3rd. I have the HP breed Huge Toad atm(1709/273/244 )and it is very solid as an undead tanking pet..... but the h/h breed has self healing and (1887/244/244)! A frog kiss proc and you're laughing.

It may seem off to have a darkness and a healing pet on the same team but the nightshade pretty much starts 1st to blind ..then go from there...the Toad goes after the dazzling dance is up...Darkness is just used when up against dragons and big healing comps

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Post by Mvallas » June 20th, 2015, 11:16 pm

I've been seeing a LOT of people with Graves in their lineup - but thankfully he doesn't seem to hold up much at all with my all-star team... literally! Three Iron Starlets! :P

Graves just gets up to bat, does the AoE and one other attack - splat, I one-shot him. He gets to toss maybe two skulls at my first Iron Starlet and that's about it.

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Post by Happygilmore » June 21st, 2015, 6:37 am

Tekulve2012 wrote:A team i run with to counter Graves and his undead pals is:
s/s Nightshade sproutling-lash-darkness-blinding poison
p/b Alpine foxling-flurry-crouch-dazzling dance

and any 3rd pet based on your meta's usual suspects---frag of anger/fjord worg pup/jademist dancer (for Rags and Teroclaw)

I like the Mana wymling idea posted here earlier and a fast slithershock elver has also been fun..

But if you are facing 3 undead...i suggest an h/h Huge toad as a 3rd. I have the HP breed Huge Toad atm(1709/273/244 )and it is very solid as an undead tanking pet..... but the h/h breed has self healing and (1887/244/244)! A frog kiss proc and you're laughing.

It may seem off to have a darkness and a healing pet on the same team but the nightshade pretty much starts 1st to blind ..then go from there...the Toad goes after the dazzling dance is up...Darkness is just used when up against dragons and big healing comps
if u are using dazzling dance than B/B Mud Jumper is going to be better I think, bubble easily makes up for the difference in HP and Mudslide + Tongue Lash destroy the majority of undead even without the 25% speed increase.
Vevy wrote:
Happygilmore, I have an extra S/S that I might be interested in trading if you are interested and have anything that I need.
would love to trade for it, what are u looking for? Message me

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Post by Tekulve2012 » June 21st, 2015, 6:40 pm

Well, in my pvp meta...fliers are almost impossible to use anymore due to the monstrous amount of fragments of anger...
If you start a fliers vs the 'Face'...you're pasted...if you backline the flier, it will likely lose it's racial after the FoA gets 2 aoes in

Ive used the mud jumper...with some success...I just find that a Huge toad's extra hp allows you flexibility about when to bring it in to play..rather than being forced to start with the mud jumper...but I'll run with it some more
--------------
I can say that when i ran graves and the fragment of anger, bubbles and decoys are a non issue...getting stunned,slept or blinded was...In one funny pvp matchup, I was surprised how well Pierre did against Graves(i did win but there was a lot of switching)...stench and food coma is so annoying..but rng dependant so i dont recommend it

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Post by Saasan » June 25th, 2015, 5:00 pm

I run a Graves team and I would like to say that bunnies and toads have not done sufficient damage to take my team down. Graves just has too much HP for them to make enough of a dent--even the time I encountered three toads. Smoosh!

Also, a note on RI and Murkalot--a solid combo, but I eventually dropped it in favor of adding another backline damage pet. RI is a wonderful buff, but I find Murkalot to be too squishy to be viable for more than a hit or so. And all the backline undead damage we are seeing just chews him up.

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Post by Igantinos » June 27th, 2015, 4:10 pm

Also, a note on RI and Murkalot--a solid combo, but I eventually dropped it in favor of adding another backline damage pet. RI is a wonderful buff, but I find Murkalot to be too squishy to be viable for more than a hit or so. And all the backline undead damage we are seeing just chews him up.
I have to disagree with you there. I feel that Murkalot adds quite needed single target burst with Falling Murloc. Sometimes it's the only way to break the healing teams. Though I do agree that he is dead weight against other Graves teams. I would love for Bizz to add RI to any other pet. Preferably a tankier one.

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Post by Myon » June 27th, 2015, 4:16 pm

I've become fond of the P/S Bone Serpent in Graves teams for that reason. Has decoy/bubble removing utility with Bone Barrage, and Call Darkness + Nocturnal Strike provides good single target damage while also giving you tools against the aquatic or healing teams that people like to run.

I still run Murkalot myself to round out the team of 3. With 2 undead pets on the team you really want a humanoid around to soak up critter damage when needed - but he is fragile and best saved for the very end of the match.

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Post by Thingil » July 2nd, 2015, 3:44 am

Alot of graves comes down to player skill, that said its not hard to counter. Undead are very powerful and having a strong pet just for them is a must. I can rock 2 mech panda drags with a lifelike mech pig all day and win buts its boring. Right now i use 2 crushers one fast one slow and a Vengeful porcupine to counter any undead I find. Yes Graves with a Mech panda is insane but you can stop it.

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Post by Saasan » July 2nd, 2015, 1:48 pm

Thingil wrote:Alot of graves comes down to player skill, that said its not hard to counter. Undead are very powerful and having a strong pet just for them is a must. I can rock 2 mech panda drags with a lifelike mech pig all day and win buts its boring. Right now i use 2 crushers one fast one slow and a Vengeful porcupine to counter any undead I find. Yes Graves with a Mech panda is insane but you can stop it.
Yes, I have fought Graves teams that were pretty terribly played. It has some innately strong synergy, but the player behind it makes all the difference. And I run Graves plus MPD and it fun times. :)

Note: I pictured mechanical pandas in drag when I read your abbreviation and was VERY confused for a second, lol!

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