Graves observations

Discuss pet battles, strategy and theorycrafting.
User avatar
Poofah
Posts: 820
Joined: October 5th, 2012
Pet Score: 4206
Realm: Llane-US
Contact:

Re: Graves observations

Post by Poofah » June 4th, 2015, 12:43 pm

Sile9 wrote:
Round 1- RI to Graves
Round 2- Bonestorm
Round 3- Consume
Round 4- Grave Destruction
Round 5- Consume
Round 6- Bonestorm
Round 7- Consume, finally CD locked on all three abilities
Round 8- Swap to Murkalot
Round 9- RI to MPD
1 - RI
2 - Bonestorm = 501 dmg to each pet (1503 total)
3 - Consume = 200 dmg, 200 heal
4 - Grave Destruction = 668 dmg split among enemy team
5 - Consume = 200 dmg, 200 heal
6 - Bonestorm = 250 dmg to each pet (700 total)

After 4 turns you've done 2371 damage and healed 200. That's 593 damage per turn. After 6 turns you've done 3321 damage; 554 damage per turn.

Without RI, it would instead be 2568 damage over 5 turns; 514 damage per turn. These numbers are all way too high.

This isn't a surprise though: we've known about this pet for some time, e.g.

http://www.warcraftpets.com/community/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13143&p=106932#p106932

But maybe now that it's live they'll get enough feedback to take another look.
Skavenged wrote:I don't mind rewarding other people for finding the time to play other blizz games, but the reward should not be a game changer in THIS game.
The appropriate thing would be to tone Graves down so that it's actually (closer to) balanced. Exclusivity shouldn't be a factor.

User avatar
Skavenged
Posts: 193
Joined: September 12th, 2013
Pet Score: 6107
Realm: Cairne-US
Contact:

Re: Graves observations

Post by Skavenged » June 4th, 2015, 1:22 pm

Poofah wrote:The appropriate thing would be to tone Graves down so that it's actually (closer to) balanced. Exclusivity shouldn't be a factor.
Exactly!! My problem isn't the exclusivity of the pet. Its the fact that it is a reward from another game that is so powerful that it changes how THIS game is played. I totally agree with rewarding people. Give them a new pet... Give it a unique appearance... But give it an average move set. Better yet, just copy the moveset of another popular undead already in the game

User avatar
Luciandk
Posts: 1293
Joined: February 12th, 2012
Pet Score: 3576
Realm: Argent Dawn-EU
Contact:

Re: Graves observations

Post by Luciandk » June 4th, 2015, 1:37 pm

I still dont see the problem with a powerful pet from another blizzard game, that is so easy to obtain like Graves is. It only took me four days The power of the pet was the incentive for me to grind it out.

But I agree that having 2 aoe moves may be too much. The most predictable nerf would be to swap Clobber and Bonestorm. So you have to choose between the 2 aoe's, instead of fielding both. Then graves would still be a strong pet, but not ridiculously so. Id expect to see people use Skull Toss, Consume Corpse and Grave Destruction post nerf.

Say Poofah, how does Graves compare with Iron Starlette dps wise? Its after all the fluxfire feline 2.0

Sesamee
Posts: 57
Joined: October 19th, 2012
Pet Score: 5091
Realm: Kil'jaeden-US
Contact:

Re: Graves observations

Post by Sesamee » June 4th, 2015, 2:13 pm

I agree that Graves is really powerful with a Murkalot on the team. I'm just not sure how I feel about him being nerfed over a single combo. Without Murkalot he's just a good cleave pet. I do like that he'll shake up the meta and we'll see more aquatics which might then bring out the flying pets too.

As far as obtaining Graves it's relatively simple to get him. It's not really fair to complain about that. You can spend a lot longer trying for certain pets in WoW that aren't half as good.

User avatar
Sleepysam
Posts: 19
Joined: April 2nd, 2015
Pet Score: 4053
Realm: Sargeras-US
Contact:

Re: Graves observations

Post by Sleepysam » June 4th, 2015, 2:39 pm

tl dr - need to get the rest of the levels in HOTS for new OP pet. :twisted:

User avatar
Skavenged
Posts: 193
Joined: September 12th, 2013
Pet Score: 6107
Realm: Cairne-US
Contact:

Re: Graves observations

Post by Skavenged » June 4th, 2015, 2:46 pm

Ok, let me try to explain this another way... Suppose that instead of a pet, they said that if you reach level 20 then all of your WoW toons get a legendary 715 weapon suitable to class. Suddenly everyone is running around with legendary weapons, and the content gets stale quickly. That is the same equivilant in our little niche. You're giving a top level item in this game as a reward for visiting another game. Now if the item was just a green, but was a really cool transmog item, then the hardcore few could go get the cool new item without creating a huge imbalance in the dynamics of the game. You do not pass out top gear like candy and neither should top pets be passed out

User avatar
Luciandk
Posts: 1293
Joined: February 12th, 2012
Pet Score: 3576
Realm: Argent Dawn-EU
Contact:

Re: Graves observations

Post by Luciandk » June 4th, 2015, 3:13 pm

Completely ridiculous example, Graves is strong, but not an automatic iwin button. A strong aoe heal pet will limit what he can do.

Lets just agree to disagree, Graves is easy enough to get as it is. Anyone serious about pet battling and collecting will have earned him by now, or close to finishing. Stop yammering and go knock off some hots games while the xp bonus is active.

But if anything it might cause people to use more aquatic pets to deal with all the ud cleave damage flying around.

User avatar
Papazol
Posts: 261
Joined: October 19th, 2012
Pet Score: 6331
Realm: Balnazzar-US
Contact:

Re: Graves observations

Post by Papazol » June 4th, 2015, 5:54 pm

Luciandk wrote:Graves is strong, but not an automatic iwin button.
Yes, it is.
I didn't pvping may be 2 years, and still get 10:2, but for real it was 10:0. I don't sure, did I lose that 2 games, cose they had only undead next round after proc both times and it was just because I didn't know how that teams play. After it I won them both next time without chances.
I didn't see so OP pet yet.

User avatar
Skavenged
Posts: 193
Joined: September 12th, 2013
Pet Score: 6107
Realm: Cairne-US
Contact:

Re: Graves observations

Post by Skavenged » June 4th, 2015, 8:20 pm

So if everyone has this super OP pet it makes it OK? Kinda like it was ok when we were all running valk/dah teams?

The fact that this one pet makes an entire class of pets (humanoids) nearly useless is not cool. The fact that this one pet means that you almost have to use aquatics to even have a chance, is likewise not cool. One of the absolute best things about WoD is that they finally created parity in pet battles. I've seen solid teams made of the strangest combos of pets, and yet they work simply because the player behind those teams did some thinking and built a clever team that had synergy. I've seen every class and breed of pets become viable, thanks to that parity. But really, who needs parity or cleverness to win battles, when we can all just start running variations of the same team again and just cross our fingers hoping the RNG gods like us better than our opponent? And OMG, what happens if someone suddenly figures out that murkalot and Graves pair up really well with a crow to wipe out those severely damaged aquatics?

User avatar
Luciandk
Posts: 1293
Joined: February 12th, 2012
Pet Score: 3576
Realm: Argent Dawn-EU
Contact:

Re: Graves observations

Post by Luciandk » June 4th, 2015, 8:48 pm

Humanoids needs to be scared of undead anyhow, so its good that they are kept in check. Anubisath idol have had its time in the light for far too long. Bring the aquatics if you want to counter the UD.

User avatar
Tekulve2012
Posts: 800
Joined: December 27th, 2012
Pet Score: 4376
BattleTag®: kingsfoiler#1479
Realm: Sisters of Elune-US
Contact:

Re: Graves observations

Post by Tekulve2012 » June 4th, 2015, 9:09 pm

I'd like to remind you guys of some other undead beaters...

I very nearly soloed a triple undead team today with a p/p fjord worg pup..It was Weebom/Valkyr/Scourged whelp...

Foxes and worgs have crouch to mitigate dmg..i love the p/b alpine foxling best of all foxes

If you run a crawdad or hyjal wisp to renew some health and maybe a mountain panda with mudslide to prevent switching ...there are ways to survive

the vengeful porc prevents dmg and the spikes hurt your opponent when they atk...note that a p/p Young talbuk smacks undead very hard as well

blinding, stunning and darkness are also great worthwhile plan spoilers..the s/s Nightshade sproutling is terrific for this
---------------
Sure...I have Graves and yes, it is hard to beat....but not only aquatic pets are viable vs undead in pet pvp

btw - 6.2 will bring more pet lovers to pet pvp with the menagerie quest that gives a 5 pet level boost stone for 5 pet pvp wins (pretty sure i have that right)
I do hope people dont get too discouraged by losses to Graves spammers...the pets I'm suggesting here are battle worthy

User avatar
Saasan
Top Rater
Posts: 280
Joined: March 28th, 2013
Pet Score: 5353
BattleTag®: Dredre#1692
Realm: Thrall-US
Contact:

Re: Graves observations

Post by Saasan » June 4th, 2015, 10:44 pm

Myon wrote:That's how it usually plays out for me - I typically just let Graves stay in till he's dead and then finish up with Murkalot and the MPD, unless of course the opponent has managed to play in a way that forces me to adapt a little.
^^ Loving this combo. Haven't pvped in ages but this is a great set-up. I can play around with it a little depending opponents, but the synergy isn't lost. Fun! I'm sure it will get nerfed, but until I'll be working on my Stunted Direhorn. :)

User avatar
Myon
Posts: 49
Joined: February 3rd, 2015
BattleTag®: Myon#1319
Realm: Frostmourne-US
Contact:

Re: Graves observations

Post by Myon » June 4th, 2015, 10:44 pm

I feel like the power of Graves is almost entirely due to the power of Murkalot (which I personally feel got even stronger after the 'nerf' back then, I'll gladly lose shieldstorm for falling murloc). As others have mentioned, without RI support, Graves is just your typical above average pet with favourable stats and a good moveset.

There are a good deal of other pets on the same power level on an individual basis if you ask me. Fragment of Anger is a good example, strong AoE, undead, decent stats. It will often take out your opponent's front pet and damage the backline a couple of times with spiritfire beam before it itself can be taken out, and so you'll need a competitive plan to stand on an even footing against that damage output - a fox to rush it down with howl/flurry for example.

It doesn't get hard countered by aquatics too unlike Graves who has undead abilities across the board, I'd take an FoA over a Graves if I had to choose one pet to battle with.

Frankly, these kinds of winrates with Graves aren't anything special, you can run a ton of other obvious combos like Murkalot + MPD/Blackfuse Bombing/FoA/Haunt and just roll over 95% of the teams out there not prepared to deal with it, Murkalot is to blame in all of these.
Saasan wrote:
Myon wrote:That's how it usually plays out for me - I typically just let Graves stay in till he's dead and then finish up with Murkalot and the MPD, unless of course the opponent has managed to play in a way that forces me to adapt a little.
^^ Loving this combo. Haven't pvped in ages but this is a great set-up. I can play around with it a little depending opponents, but the synergy isn't lost. Fun! I'm sure it will get nerfed, but until I'll be working on my Stunted Direhorn. :)
Yeah I've lately taken to running the MPD as a third pet for my Murkalot teams. I used to run the Bronze Whelpling in its place, but having a double weakness against mechanicals was its archilles' heel (blessed hammer and arcane slash both magic type moves). The MPD's still decently fast, has utility with Decoy and Thunderbolt helps shore up that mechanical weakness, it getting buffed to a split AoE which is most useful at the late stages of a match is just icing on the cake.

User avatar
Luciandk
Posts: 1293
Joined: February 12th, 2012
Pet Score: 3576
Realm: Argent Dawn-EU
Contact:

Re: Graves observations

Post by Luciandk » June 5th, 2015, 5:18 am

Having shieldstorm together with righteous inspiration was causing a lot of whines, because of that shield prolonging the life of your team together with the power of RI. Murkalot started out with RI+falling murloc, but they nerfed him to have RI and Shieldstorm to tone down his damage prior to release of the pet. But eventually reverting it due to complaints as the new combo proved even worser balance wise for such an exclusive pet.

User avatar
Skavenged
Posts: 193
Joined: September 12th, 2013
Pet Score: 6107
Realm: Cairne-US
Contact:

Re: Graves observations

Post by Skavenged » June 5th, 2015, 7:15 am

The problem with murkalot has never been his moveset. The problem is the moves themselves. RI should give either the speed buff OR the damage buff. Not both. Falling Murloc has the same damage as ion cannon, except that the stun only lasts one round, and Murk can be swapped out, while Chrominius, Tonks, etc have to stand there for two rounds taking a beating.

User avatar
Myon
Posts: 49
Joined: February 3rd, 2015
BattleTag®: Myon#1319
Realm: Frostmourne-US
Contact:

Re: Graves observations

Post by Myon » June 5th, 2015, 7:38 am

Skavenged wrote:Falling Murloc has the same damage as ion cannon, except that the stun only lasts one round, and Murk can be swapped out, while Chrominius, Tonks, etc have to stand there for two rounds taking a beating.
As if that wasn't bad enough, the self-stun from Falling Murloc is also negated by arcane winds, so in that weather it becomes a completely downside free move!

User avatar
Darkrose8519
Posts: 25
Joined: March 31st, 2013
Pet Score: 5043
Realm: Area 52-US
Contact:

Re: Graves observations

Post by Darkrose8519 » June 6th, 2015, 9:38 am

I don't have any murlocs.... can anyone suggest anything else that would work well with Graves..I have a pretty large stable, just missing blizzcon, ce and raf pets mainly.

User avatar
Digem
MVP
Posts: 508
Joined: August 1st, 2013
Pet Score: 7177
Realm: Archimonde-US
Contact:

Re: Graves observations

Post by Digem » June 8th, 2015, 10:10 am

Skavenged wrote:OK, allow me to clarify my comment. I play WoW. I raid two nights per week. I do my dailies to keep my toons up to date. I do the upkeep on my garrisons. And between all that, I try to keep my pet collection up to date. I also used to pvp, but with all the other game stuff taking up my time, I had to give something up. PvP had to go. Basically, in order to improve myself in WOW, I have to stop actually playing WoW, and spend that time playing another game? Now as I said, I don't mind rewarding other people for finding the time to play other blizz games, but the reward should not be a game changer in THIS game.
It literally takes a few days to get to 20 in hots.
Secondly you could counter the team and not worry about getting graves.
Plenty of really good aquatics out there any frog with bubble and swarm of flies would do extremely well against this team.
There is always a counter, just have to figure it out that is half the fun of pvping in pet battles

User avatar
Luciandk
Posts: 1293
Joined: February 12th, 2012
Pet Score: 3576
Realm: Argent Dawn-EU
Contact:

Re: Graves observations

Post by Luciandk » June 8th, 2015, 10:16 am

Digem wrote:
Skavenged wrote:OK, allow me to clarify my comment. I play WoW. I raid two nights per week. I do my dailies to keep my toons up to date. I do the upkeep on my garrisons. And between all that, I try to keep my pet collection up to date. I also used to pvp, but with all the other game stuff taking up my time, I had to give something up. PvP had to go. Basically, in order to improve myself in WOW, I have to stop actually playing WoW, and spend that time playing another game? Now as I said, I don't mind rewarding other people for finding the time to play other blizz games, but the reward should not be a game changer in THIS game.
It literally takes a few days to get to 20 in hots.
Secondly you could counter the team and not worry about getting graves.
Plenty of really good aquatics out there any frog with bubble and swarm of flies would do extremely well against this team.
There is always a counter, just have to figure it out that is half the fun of pvping in pet battles
[pet]Frostwolf Ghostpup[/pet]
Its undead. High power. Critter damage to hurt undead. A strong aoe heal and a staller move.

User avatar
Digem
MVP
Posts: 508
Joined: August 1st, 2013
Pet Score: 7177
Realm: Archimonde-US
Contact:

Re: Graves observations

Post by Digem » June 8th, 2015, 10:23 am

Luciandk wrote:
Digem wrote:
Skavenged wrote:OK, allow me to clarify my comment. I play WoW. I raid two nights per week. I do my dailies to keep my toons up to date. I do the upkeep on my garrisons. And between all that, I try to keep my pet collection up to date. I also used to pvp, but with all the other game stuff taking up my time, I had to give something up. PvP had to go. Basically, in order to improve myself in WOW, I have to stop actually playing WoW, and spend that time playing another game? Now as I said, I don't mind rewarding other people for finding the time to play other blizz games, but the reward should not be a game changer in THIS game.
It literally takes a few days to get to 20 in hots.
Secondly you could counter the team and not worry about getting graves.
Plenty of really good aquatics out there any frog with bubble and swarm of flies would do extremely well against this team.
There is always a counter, just have to figure it out that is half the fun of pvping in pet battles
[pet]Frostwolf Ghostpup[/pet]
Its undead. High power. Critter damage to hurt undead. A strong aoe heal and a staller move.
So there is let # 2 to the team to counter it.
Add in a lava crab to go after the MPD and here is a great counter team.
Frog with bubble and swarm of flies think toxic Croaker has those moves.
Frost wolf pup and a lava crab and one should do fine against that team

Post Reply