6.0.2 First impressions

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Kendrah
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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Post by Kendrah » October 17th, 2014, 11:18 pm

I haven't explored it PVP but I'm not a terribly big fan of it PVE wise. It's making the dailies go really bad, especially if you hit only low hits. I had Sludgy from the Earth Spirit dailies take my Son of Animus down to like 400 HP in (seriously) two hits. He barely made it to the last pet. I was doing the Fire Spirit daily and that second pet killed my poor dragon. All her attacks hit but she just hit him way too low and he survived to do Confligrate again.

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Post by Vek » October 18th, 2014, 1:06 am

Poofah wrote: Crush, Crush, Crush, Crush = 4*((0.45*16) + (0.5*28) + (0.05*1.5*28)) = 93.2
Hawk Eye, Crush, Crush, Crush = 3*((0.2*28) + (0.8*1.5*28)) = 117.6

So it's actually not bad.
Ah nice, thanks. Guess crit buffs can be more useful now. Theoretically they would preform better on the old 80-95% hit abilities than the 100% hit ones.
Poofah wrote:Regillixavatar tested this on beta with Raindance -- it seems to use a hit table, so that you fill in % chances from the top down, and once you fill the table then you just stop. Ie it's additive, even though it's percentages. So for example in this case, you'd have 80% crits (which are high hits), then 50% high hits, then 50% low hits. And it just gets cut off after 100%. It's possible that it's not the case for Hawk Eye, or that it changed -- if we see a low hit with Hawkeye up then we'd have to reassess.
Almost figured this out due to your damage formula but wasn't sure. I have little evidence yet having only tried Hawk Eye with the S/S Guardling for two battles. Also I ran with Reckless Strike for additional oomph. Hawk Eye - Reckless - Crush - Reckless.
First fight was against a clone dance, did Hawk Eye then the Jademist switched in and got killed by three huge crits.
Second fight the guarding was up against a snail. Hawk Eye -> Reckless crit -> regular Crush. And that Crush hit for 200, which would seem to be low end. But I only have this one instance of it happening so far. So not much evidence. :)

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Post by Tekulve2012 » October 18th, 2014, 10:48 am

If it were not for Foss.Hatch and Murkalot combo, I think the Guardling would be even more commonly used. You have excellent options with an s/s stunner or p/p reckless strike finisher with this pet.

I've only run with the speed breed and had nice results pre-patch and I've always opted for the stun (which may continue to be needed with the Starlette's big hits) ...people still very often switch after being stunned whether it makes sense or not

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Post by Bai98_ » October 18th, 2014, 12:33 pm

Started leveling up my new Bronze Whelpling-did I miss a memo where pets won't regen health to full upon leveling up in 6.0.2 or is this a bug? Haven't tried leveling any other pets since the patch to see if its happening across the board.

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Post by Gilneas » October 18th, 2014, 2:51 pm

Bai98_ wrote:Started leveling up my new Bronze Whelpling-did I miss a memo where pets won't regen health to full upon leveling up in 6.0.2 or is this a bug? Haven't tried leveling any other pets since the patch to see if its happening across the board.
Its a bug, and it also does not appear to be consistent as sometimes I think my pet was healing to its new full health. Though I didn't pay a great deal of attention as it didn't matter too much to the leveling process.

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Post by Witbier » October 18th, 2014, 6:10 pm

I'm wondering if anyone else is feeling like we're getting less exp from pet battles? I'm a little late to the game and still working on leveling my pet collection - it used to be that with the safari hat and the lesser pet treat buff, a level 1 pet would hit level 13 after one battle with a daily pet trainer. After the patch, under the same conditions, a level 1 pet will now hit level 12 (in addition to not healing to full ><). Wondering if the hat is not working, the buffs are not stacking, we're getting less exp, or if I'm just losing my mind (entirely possible >.>).

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Post by Jerebear » October 18th, 2014, 7:30 pm

Witbier wrote:I'm wondering if anyone else is feeling like we're getting less exp from pet battles? I'm a little late to the game and still working on leveling my pet collection - it used to be that with the safari hat and the lesser pet treat buff, a level 1 pet would hit level 13 after one battle with a daily pet trainer. After the patch, under the same conditions, a level 1 pet will now hit level 12 (in addition to not healing to full ><). Wondering if the hat is not working, the buffs are not stacking, we're getting less exp, or if I'm just losing my mind (entirely possible >.>).
It takes 5685 experience to go from level 1 to level 13. A level 1 carry pet with just a safari hat and lesser treat will net (prior to the recent patch and also currently) 4894 EXP. This is only enough to make it to level 12. Now if you use a safari hat and both a lesser pet treat and pet treat, then a level 1 carry pet will get 6706 EXP, which is enough to hit level 14. See my signature if you need details on where those numbers come from.

Nothing appears to have changed for EXP in this patch and I have been testing Beta as well and have not seen any changes in pet EXP gains.
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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Post by Witbier » October 18th, 2014, 11:16 pm

Cool - I'm just crazy then. ;) Actually happier with that than the other possibilities. Also - read your post and didn't know about the darkmoon top hat trick - excited to try that out. Thanks again.

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Post by Jazeel » October 19th, 2014, 6:49 pm

So far i have been enjoying the patch and the changes they have bought about, One thing that i noticed the combat animations seem faster in pet battles now, seems to my eyes at least blizz trimmed the time a pets attack takes.

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Post by Awq » October 20th, 2014, 4:21 pm

Poofah wrote:On a large timescale, it's actually less random. For example consider the chances of 'getting lucky' with Crush and KOing a pet in 4 turns. In the old system, you just had to hit 4 times in a row, ie 0.8^4 = 41% chance. That's pretty good odds, ie it favors the player who chooses randomness. In the new system, the chance to get 4 high hits in a row is 0.5^4 = 6%. So it is actually suppressing the effect of luck on the scale of multiple turns.
I do agree that it actually suppressing the effect of luck on the scale of multiple turns, I also agree that the last few hits of a close match are the most random.

I am quite bad at structurally making my point in English. I really should work on it. I should have written "However, the outcome of the matches will be more random for me".
With this I actually mean "The range of their damage has increased, which no longer allows me to reliably calculate the opponents (potential) damage. I can no longer form an optimal strategy based on their damage output, which will make the games more random since my control to influence the outcome of the match has diminished."
It was a alinea about how randomness impacts me. I see how people did not read that, since it sadly wasn't what I typed. I really need to proofread myself when I write in English, especially when I quickly write the post.
I doubt that the average user calculates ahead and thinks of the optimal way to use their cool downs, so that part must have been confusing :mrgreen:

I did some number crushing this evening, that felt relevant for Veks question.

I am assuming that Regillixavatar distribution is the current distribution.
http://www.warcraftpets.com/community/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10662

The distribution favors extremes. It is almost an inversed normal distribution. Sadly the lower-higher average for Steam vent/Crush aren't given, so I am gonna guess based on his Shadow Slash information. The lower range has an average of 17.7 BA, while the upper range has an average of 24.13 BA.*
This results in 308 dmg (20+(17.7*325)/20) and 391 damage. If you assume that both distributions have the same averages at the same point, one could guess that the average upper damage is 26.8 and the average lower damage is 16.7 These are of course guesses, but it would result in an UA of 455 damage and LA of 291.

The first question that interests me. How does the new system impact the number of rounds needed for a kill?
455*4=1820. Will be a 4 shot, (with chance of a 3 shot, depending on the )
455*3+291*1=1656 Can be a 4 shot (with chance of a 5 shot)
455*2+291*2=1492 Can be a 4 shot. (with chance of a 5 shot)
455*1+291*3=1328 Will be a 5 shot.
291*4=1163 Will be a 5 shot.
Note: The range in damage is 657.
Note: I assume that 1400 dmg = kill.
Note: This is however an extreme situation. It involves a P/P breed, in combination with a 80% move.

As you can see there are multiple ways to reach a 4 shot or a 5 shot, although a 3 shot is not impossible. This makes the outcome of a match-up quite unpredictable. The results won't be extreme with a pet that does not use a former80% hit move and that does not have P/P as breed.
If you plan to use a team for many (100+) matches, you can calculate the potential damage before hand.


Are former 100% moves the better option?
Gahz'Rooki will be a better example, since it has Bite (former 100% move) and Tail Slap (former 80% move). It comes in a mixed breed (P/S), so the results won't be as extreme as the (P/P) Qiraji Guardling.

Bite
317*4=1268 (not enough for a kill)
317*5=1585 (generally enough for a kill)
317*6=1902 (guaranteed kill)

One generally needs 5 hits with Bite to kill an enemy.
Tail Slap
378*4=1512 (generally enough for a 4 round kill)
378*3+283*1=1417 (possibly enough for a 4 round kill)
378*2+283*2=1322 (not enough for a 4 round kill)
378*1+283*3=1227 (not enough for a 4 round kill)
283*4+=1132 (not enough for a four round kill)

I however would like to know when Bite becomes better.
378*3+283*2=1700
378*2+283*3=1605
378*1+283*4=1510
283*5=1415 (just enough for a kill)
If the opponent has <1400 health (and you only spam Tail Slap), Tail Slap performs similar or better in any situation.
Only in the situation of 4 lower hits+1 upper hit and 5 lower hits will Tail Slap do less damage. Tail Slap is the better choice.

I would recommend moves with variance for most people, especially people with an average or low winrate. I however personally stick with recommendation for 100% moves to people who win a lot, since they make wins more reliable.

How does this impact pets with less power and a less random move?
Lets take a H/H Unborn Val'Kyr with Shadow Slash. It was a 90% move and the Val'Kyr has 276 power.

264 LA, 353 UA.
353*4=1412. Will be a 4 shot (with a good chance of a 5 shot)
353*3+264*1=1323 Will be a 5 shot
353*2+264*2=1234 Will be a 5 shot
353*1+264*3=1145 Will be a 5 shot
264*4=1056 Will be a 6 shot

The first thing that I noticed was that with less power and less randomness a 5 round shot is most likely to happen (88%). The chance for a 4&6 round kill have drastically been reduced when you take away the range/power.
The damage range has been reduced compared to P/P Qiraji.

The second thing I noticed is that I can not tell which move is best for the Val'Kyr for average players, since I do not know the damage range of Shadow Shock.

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Post by Poofah » October 21st, 2014, 4:10 pm

Awq wrote:I however would like to know when Bite becomes better.
...
378*1+283*4=1510
...
If the opponent has <1400 health (and you only spam Tail Slap), Tail Slap performs similar or better in any situation.
This is not quite true. What if the opponent has exactly 300 health? Tail Slap has a 50% chance to kill them, 50% chance to leave them alive with 17 health. Bite has a 100% chance to kill them. So Bite performs better in this situation. By extension, if the opponent has 600 health, Bite is also better because it kills them in 2 turns guaranteed. But Tail Slap has a 75% chance to kill them in 2 turns, and a 25% chance to only deal 283*2 = 566 damage.

Now what if the opponent has 350 health? Now Tail Slap has a 50% chance to kill them in 1 turn, and a 50% chance to kill them in 2 turns. Whereas Bite has a 0% chance to kill them in 1 turn, and a 100% chance to kill them in 2 turns.

So at 300 opponent health, Bite is better; at 350, Tail Slap is better; at 400, Bite is better again; at 750, Tail Slap is better again.

Over the course of many turns (e.g. 4+), then your analysis is correct. The high-variance attacks are better, because their expected damage is higher, and over the course of many turns the variance will even out and the actual damage will approach the expected damage.

This is not different from the old versions, incidentally. The difference is that instead of an 80% chance to win with old Tail Slap when the opponent is on 300 health, the chance to win with new Tail Slap is 50%. In return you will never lose with new Tail Slap when the opponent is on 200 health; whereas with old Tail Slap you had a 20% chance to lose. They've just shifted the probabilities around, but they've done it in a way that makes it most prominent late in the game, and at very particular health plateaus.

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Post by Jerebear » October 21st, 2014, 7:05 pm

Poofah wrote:
Awq wrote:I however would like to know when Bite becomes better.
...
378*1+283*4=1510
...
If the opponent has <1400 health (and you only spam Tail Slap), Tail Slap performs similar or better in any situation.
This is not quite true. What if the opponent has exactly 300 health? Tail Slap has a 50% chance to kill them, 50% chance to leave them alive with 17 health. Bite has a 100% chance to kill them.
Doesn't Bite still have the old 10% variance? I know they took it off the abilites they moved to the new system, but I thought they left it on the abilities they didn't?
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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Post by Poofah » October 22nd, 2014, 12:48 am

It does. Essentially you choose among

10% variance (normal distribution), 20 base dmg**
20% variance (bimodal distribution), 21 base dmg
30% variance (bimodal distribution), 22 base dmg

**edit** this appears to be wrong -- it seems that Bite and other 100% accuracy abilities now have completely fixed damage, with no range at all.
Last edited by Poofah on October 26th, 2014, 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Post by Chibimage » October 22nd, 2014, 5:25 pm

I've been playing on the beta for months now with this system. I've completed all the new content -- including the Elekk Plushie Achievement with this new system.

All I'd like to add is that I love this new system in every way.

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Post by Vek » October 23rd, 2014, 3:49 am

So far I am seeing a greater variety of pets in use. To me that makes things much more interesting than just having to counter certain pets over and over. Of course there is still plenty of MPD and Fossilized hatchlings. Sooner or later a new top-tier of pets will reveal themselves, but I'm happy for now.

Unborn Val'kyr. I love that they no longer can blindly spam Haunt. Instead they actually have to think about what they are doing. Right now it is noticable that if they miss their Haunt for some reason most of my opponents are not sure what to do. Some are learning and trying to delay the Haunt, good for them! It might be a bit harsh that you cant use Haunt after you died but if ressing is a condition of Haunt it makes sense.

DAH. I am seeing more different breeds of DAH in use, and actually a couple of my opponents are actually mixing up the abilities they are using. Though strangely enough I have yet to see Crouch/Burrow. Even with blinding posion and puncture wound extra cooldown the DAH can be deadly, but it can no longer blindly just face down any opponent with little risk. Once again you have to be smart about how you are using it, which is quite different from Before patch. The Blind Poison cooldown now allows you three attacks, if slower than DAH, so that is a huge change. But one thing I really like, despite it also nerfed both my Kovok and my Praire Mouse, is that their Posion Fang now deals quite low initial damage which really helps keeping your own pet alive to take advantage of the three unblinded turns. I just get the feeling that more pets have a fighting chance other than direct counters. Also it is still fun outsmarting the Adder with a slower pet.

Anubisath Idol. While Crush won't miss, unless you have hit reduction, it definetly does not feel as powerful as Before. Especially under Sandstorm, where it has 55 chance to hit low. If the Idol gets a string of low hits(for about 170 or so) they are very manageable, but if you get unlucky and they start hitting for 400 each turn then you almost feel the same pain as before patch. I still don't fancy facing an Idol without a counter but they feel more manageable. Most dangerous Idol is still a lucky Demolish spammer, nothing much can stand that.

Moths. I just get the feeling that unless critting Moth Dust is not that dangerous anymore. While you can't hope for a miss the damage reduction again makes me feel that they are more manageable even if they get a sleep procc.

Myself have been playing alot less with my cuddly Vengeful Porcupette now that I really don't need it to handle Valks and DAHs. This has opened up alot of new possible pets to run with for me.

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Post by Drudatz » October 24th, 2014, 6:42 pm

Vek wrote:So been pvp battling a couple of days now. I was never in the "remove misses" corner but now that they are gone I don't really miss them.
Lucky you but the misses are still there :)
Vek wrote:This is probably because the attacks are hitting in the low end damage range which makes the bonus damage feel like nothing.
it doesnt make it FEEL like nothing THERE IS NO BONUS dmg. Sorry but When I say ie Anubis does bonus dmg against drakes and my Anub then hit for 250 dmg that is plainly a JOKE.

@Awq: your calculation is WRONG. You just CANT calculate anymore to how long a fight goes thx to this new layer of rng.

@topic: Once again, as sadly all things this is done only HALF-HEARTED and without the use of a brain. And clearly showing that they dont play the game themself anymore. All previous 60-90% hit abilities got nerved into the ground (especially if they fight against pet wich they are supposed to do be good against, ie humans vs dragons) while shields and dmg reducing abilities are uneffected.

tbh I didnt thought blizzard could screw pet battles up anymore but they DID!

ps: anyone knows how to make wowhead show wich abilities got boosted like Thunderbolt?

ps2:

thats it. sorry this game in this form is PVP wise a totally mess UP !
STRONG or WEAK means anymore. You cant rely on NOTHING anymore.

Seriously when a humanoid punches a drake for 150 dmg while an undead hits an aquatic for 400 everyboy shoudl realize that this game is now totally broken and beyond any hopes for repair.
SInce the FFF desaster I waited and hope for the moment that there must be at least ONE guy with a brain at blizzard, but no all they do is running this game into the ground.

6.0.2: RIP PVP Pet Battle :idea:

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Post by Poofah » October 26th, 2014, 3:37 pm

Jerebear wrote:Doesn't Bite still have the old 10% variance? I know they took it off the abilites they moved to the new system, but I thought they left it on the abilities they didn't?
There wasn't any mention of these abilities when they changed Crush/Steam Vent/etc., so I assumed they were left unchanged. But after actually testing them it seems that in fact Bite and other 100% accuracy attacks have no damage range at all. Their damage is completely fixed, they always hit for precisely the tooltip damage (occasionally for 1 point higher, which I assume reflects a rounding issue). So far I'm seeing this with Bite, Alpha Strike, Tail Sweep, Tympanic Tantrum. At least some abilities still have a bit of variance, for example Cleansing Rain's heal, but I have no idea how to predict which is which.

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Post by Jerebear » October 26th, 2014, 6:48 pm

That's interesting then. I wasn't expecting that.
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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Post by Hermy » October 28th, 2014, 3:23 am

Kendrah wrote:I haven't explored it PVP but I'm not a terribly big fan of it PVE wise. It's making the dailies go really bad, especially if you hit only low hits. I had Sludgy from the Earth Spirit dailies take my Son of Animus down to like 400 HP in (seriously) two hits. He barely made it to the last pet. I was doing the Fire Spirit daily and that second pet killed my poor dragon. All her attacks hit but she just hit him way too low and he survived to do Confligrate again.
I kind of agree, Kendrah. I haven't ventured into PvP yet, but I've found it's made my trainer dailies painful in a different way than my almost guaranteed miss-streaks on 95% abilities. I've also noticed (purely anecdotally, of course) that my variable abilities always seem to hit on the lower end of the scale, whereas the trainers always seem to hit on the higher end of the scale. I'm not really sure which I prefer, to be honest.

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