A o E oh My

[Luciandk]

Taking a look at the new pets, there seems to be a Shieldstorm clone among the new pets.

http://wod.wowhead.com/npc=83583
Forest Sproutling comes with Refuge

Refuge
6 Turn Cooldown
A natural shield surrounds each friendly critter, blocking the next attack they would take. Lasts 6 rounds.

Which is also shared by the new Gnawtooth Rat.
http://wod.wowhead.com/npc=82715

Gnawtooth Rat seems to have a -VERY- good moveset! Call Darkness, Refuge and a spammable slot 1 move that is improved by darkness.

[Kel]

Well that answers that issue.

I also like the way Refuge is strong against dragons, lol!

[Luciandk]

Well that answers that issue.

I also like the way Refuge is strong against dragons, lol!

Why would it help with dragons?

[Kel]

Well that answers that issue.

I also like the way Refuge is strong against dragons, lol!

Why would it help with dragons?

Exactly!

[Luciandk]

Well that answers that issue.

I also like the way Refuge is strong against dragons, lol!

Why would it help with dragons?

Exactly!

That made no sense at all.

[Kel]

That made no sense at all.

The attack description is listed as strong vs Dragons and weak vs Beasts. Why would they even bother listing that?
Refuge
It was a sarcastic comment, hence the "lol" at the end.

[Luciandk]

That made no sense at all.

The attack description is listed as strong vs Dragons and weak vs Beasts. Why would they even bother listing that?
Refuge
It was a sarcastic comment, hence the "lol" at the end.

Ah, Guess I just didnt catch onto that.

[Poofah]

Rat is interesting, but Refuge is bad: you have to play 2+ critters for it to be effective, and you have to get them all swapped in within 6 rounds to take advantage of it. It's not going to have any impact on the power/popularity of AoE.

[Simmias]

by critter, it most likely means the pets in your party.... not actual critter type pets.

[Adumbledore]

Oh I totally agree that it's a pain in the rear, I just think that Shieldstorm is just like any other ability. It's an AoE defensive, so use an AoE offensive to dispel it. It may force people to use certain pets or abilities to combat the ability, but I don't see how it's any different than having to use certain abilities to combat other defensives (ie: not using DoTs against pets with something like Sandstorm).

The problem is that Shieldstorm is low risk/high reward. In the worst case, if the opponent has an AoE, then you trade turns 1-for-1. If they don't, then it's 3 turns for 1, which is hideously strong.

Sandstorm is the same: in the worst case, it's still a good button to push -- a 25 base dmg nuke plus a shield that is advantageous even when facing single-target attacks (due to high health/humanoid passive). The expected value of the shield is 25 base dmg blocked, assuming single target attacks (5 base dmg * 5 turns). Against Flurry/Quills, the expected value is 62.5; against AoE, it's 75; against DoTs, it's 25*(DoT duration). It counters these abilities way too hard, and *most* of them are not at all overpowered.

The problem with having overpowered abilities and overpowered counter-abilities is that a) you only get 9 abilities in your team, so you can't pack counters for everything without sacrificing your actual strategy, and b) the merely normal abilities can't compete, so the metagame focuses on a tiny number of overpowered pets/abilities and counter-pets/abilities. We saw this with force-swap/direhorn in 5.3, and Haunt/DAH/AoE vs Emperor Crab/Sandstorm in 5.4.

So personally I don't think Sandstorm is a good design choice, but currently that's the design for countering AoE.

Thus far, there is nothing in the WoD changes to suggest that anything will change for the better. Haunt and Blinding Poison are untouched -- in fact, there is a new pet with Haunt ( http://wod.wowhead.com/npc=83817 ). AoEs are proliferating and getting stronger, and there's new and better pets with Raindance. Meanwhile there's no new Sandstorm pets, and nothing to improve on Emperor Crab (whereas there are multiple new Darkness/NocStrike pets that will make Emp Crab very sad).

So basically, we are getting boosts to the current strong strategies; no improvements to their counters; and no significant new abilities that might shake things up and provide new strategies to compete with the old ones.

That's exactly why I think there's a flaw in AoE defensives and exactly why I think we need more AoE defensive choices, especially if they're going to be adding even more AoE into pet battles. I couldn't have put it better myself.

[Kpb321]

by critter, it most likely means the pets in your party.... not actual critter type pets.

We will have to wait and see but it wouldn't be unprecedented for to only apply to one creature type. Healing Stream only heals other aquatic pets but it is worded a little differently so we'll see.

[Vek]

by critter, it most likely means the pets in your party.... not actual critter type pets.

Highly unlikely. Then it should say 'pet' instead of critter. Check Shield Storm or The Good Stuff.

The attack description is listed as strong vs Dragons and weak vs Beasts. Why would they even bother listing that?

This is nothing new. All abilities belong to a certain family. Check things like Wild Magic/Black Claw/Shell Shield, while they belong to certain families they are neither weak or strong vs pet from other families. It would be more out of place if an ability didn't belong to a family.

[Vek]

Thunderbolt is changed on the latest beta build: it's a clone of Avalanche/Carpnado now. It seems like they are moving toward the same general design for AoE abilities, ie they do X amount of damage split among living opponents, instead of X/3 damage to each opponent. Arcane Storm got the same treatment, and the new ability Cleave uses this mechanic too.

These abilities are losing the natural drawbacks of an AoE, ie that they do reduced damage against single targets. Instead, Thunderbolt is now a 600 damage nuke against a lone opponent, in addition to being very strong AoE against 3. This is going to make these new-look AoEs extremely attractive, and I think many of them are already probably too good (Thunderbolt being one of them).

I really like the fact that AoE has become a worthwhile strategy in pet battles. But these new changes are buffing something that, at this point, probably doesn't need buffing. And they're being buffed in a way that makes them require less thought, while improving their raw power.


Another tidbit: the new Razorbeak pets are flyers, and they have Raindance plus Nocturnal Strike, making them a brutal sweeper in a clonedance team.

Perhaps they need to implement a healing ability that also works like avalanche.

[Vek]

Thus far, there is nothing in the WoD changes to suggest that anything will change for the better. Haunt and Blinding Poison are untouched -- in fact, there is a new pet with Haunt ( http://wod.wowhead.com/npc=83817 ). AoEs are proliferating and getting stronger, and there's new and better pets with Raindance. Meanwhile there's no new Sandstorm pets, and nothing to improve on Emperor Crab (whereas there are multiple new Darkness/NocStrike pets that will make Emp Crab very sad)..

One thing that is good with haunt is that if you put dots and debuffs on the Valk they will keep running in back line, nice to get revenge with poison fang/black claw up for example. Guess this new haunt pet will take care of that easy enough with consume magic... what are they thinking. Haunt not good enough?

[Luciandk]

Thus far, there is nothing in the WoD changes to suggest that anything will change for the better. Haunt and Blinding Poison are untouched -- in fact, there is a new pet with Haunt ( http://wod.wowhead.com/npc=83817 ). AoEs are proliferating and getting stronger, and there's new and better pets with Raindance. Meanwhile there's no new Sandstorm pets, and nothing to improve on Emperor Crab (whereas there are multiple new Darkness/NocStrike pets that will make Emp Crab very sad)..

One thing that is good with haunt is that if you put dots and debuffs on the Valk they will keep running in back line, nice to get revenge with poison fang/black claw up for example. Guess this new haunt pet will take care of that easy enough with consume magic... what are they thinking. Haunt not good enough?

Dont you mean they are frozen while the pet is dead, if you managed to apply them before they haunted? Though to consume any debuffs present, undeadgoat would have to eat a switch once in the backrow. Unless its the free switch after the lead pet dies, though the longer you delay swapping the more the dot(s) would tick on you.

[Poofah]

Perhaps they need to implement a healing ability that also works like avalanche.

Possible. But how much would it have to heal in order to be a proper counter to Thunderbolt/Avalanche? Those do base 40 dmg, so it would have to heal base 45+. That's essentially the magnitude of Wish. So now we have a Wish-sized smart heal. But then what happens when you play SmartWish against a 'normal' team (or god forbid, you put it in a Sunlight team with Ruby Droplet)?

Guess this new haunt pet will take care of that easy enough with consume magic... what are they thinking. Haunt not good enough?

Yes, it's kind of funny. Breeds are probably not fixed yet, but currently this pet is a 276 speed pet with Haunt and either Ethereal or Consume Magic. So now we can play UDgoat/DAH, and it will still beat normal teams *and* it will trump Valk/DAH with faster Haunts and the ability to cleanse opponent Haunts/Blinding Poison. Oh and UDgoat has critter damage, just in case you were wondering whether it was a Valk counter.

So they are escalating things at the top, but that's just leaving everything else further behind.

[Vek]

Possible. But how much would it have to heal in order to be a proper counter to Thunderbolt/Avalanche? Those do base 40 dmg, so it would have to heal base 45+. That's essentially the magnitude of Wish. So now we have a Wish-sized smart heal. But then what happens when you play SmartWish against a 'normal' team (or god forbid, you put it in a Sunlight team with Ruby Droplet)?

I hope it would never come to that power. It could be more in line with Bleat, just be more useful with less amount of pets. It wouldn't nullify AoE just make it less noticeable, a bit like Sandstorm.

[Regillixavatar]

Possible. But how much would it have to heal in order to be a proper counter to Thunderbolt/Avalanche? Those do base 40 dmg, so it would have to heal base 45+. That's essentially the magnitude of Wish. So now we have a Wish-sized smart heal. But then what happens when you play SmartWish against a 'normal' team (or god forbid, you put it in a Sunlight team with Ruby Droplet)?

I hope it would never come to that power. It could be more in line with Bleat, just be more useful with less amount of pets. It wouldn't nullify AoE just make it less noticeable, a bit like Sandstorm.

I think if they would give Bleat and Inspiring song the same effect as Avalanche it would help balance things out. As it stands, the best way to counter an AOE team is to either burst them down or bring some healing...my preference would be healing. Currently we have

• Bleat/Inspiring Song - 36 base healing, 12 per pet
  Healing Wave - 30 base healing
  Ancient Blessing - 28 base healing
  Cauterize - 20 base healing + half of last hit

The strength of all of these abilities matches well with current damage. The only time I have struggled to beat an AOE team with a healing team is when I struggle to get decoys down and those damn clone-dancers (since Cyclone is persistent dmg on the backline pets)...it's all a matter of swapping like they do and maybe doing damage and healing at the same time!

I'd like to add that the adjustment to the AOE moves is a nice quality of life improvement, makes them less useless in match-ups that prevent you from getting your AOE pet out first

[Kel]

I struggle with any team that requires too much swapping. All I do is lose. I wish I knew how you guys get away with it. I've tried clone-dancer teams and end up dying to the damage being dealt while I'm swapping pets. I've tried Sunlight teams only to have the same issue. Or maybe I just suck at PvP.

[Poofah]

I hope it would never come to that power. It could be more in line with Bleat, just be more useful with less amount of pets.

Bleat is already 45 base (15 each pet), it's one of the highest heal-per-turn abilities in the game (behind Wish(50), Consume Corpse(50), Healing Stream(48), which all have significant drawbacks/restrictions). But unless you're facing AoE or you swap constantly, then it's mostly overheal. If you always got the full 45 without sacrificing convenience, it would easily be the best throughput heal.

If that's what it takes to counter the new AoEs, it's probably good evidence that the new AoEs are too strong.

As it stands, the best way to counter an AOE team is to either burst them down or bring some healing...my preference would be healing. Currently we have

Yes, absolutely. AoE teams love it when you stall and allow their Bonestorm/Avalanche to cool down. Killing the AoEer before it kills you is an effective counter-tactic: this is obviously a softer counter than Sandstorm, but including some decent burst damage is also not nearly as restrictive as putting Sandstorm in every team.

If alternatively we make better team heals, we'd have to make heals that do more than 40/45 base dmg (Avalanche/Bonestorm dmg). But then it's an arms race, and whereas Avalanche vs SmartBleat might be a balanced matchup, everybody else is still fighting with Punch/Claw/Healing Wave.

I'd like to add that the adjustment to the AOE moves is a nice quality of life improvement, makes them less useless in match-ups that prevent you from getting your AOE pet out first

Yes, but a QoL improvement for you is a QoL downgrade for your opponent. Your opponent is supposed to have ways to counter you.

AoE is currently very strong, but it has drawbacks: the damage is high, but it scales down against less than 3 opponents; and AoE/sweeper strats impose tactical inflexibility, ie Clonedance really really wants to open with the Cyclone pet. If you remove these drawbacks, then AoE is very strong, full stop. AoE in 5.4 vs 6.0 is analogous to Haunt in 5.3 (high damage, significant drawback) vs Haunt in 5.4 (high damage, high convenience).