A o E oh My

Discuss pet battles, strategy and theorycrafting.
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Kring
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Re: A o E oh My

Post by Kring » July 22nd, 2014, 5:38 pm

Vek wrote:This is nothing new. All abilities belong to a certain family. Check things like Wild Magic/Black Claw/Shell Shield, while they belong to certain families they are neither weak or strong vs pet from other families. It would be more out of place if an ability didn't belong to a family.
[ability]Explode[/ability] isn't strong nor weak against anything.

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Re: A o E oh My

Post by Poofah » July 22nd, 2014, 6:04 pm

Kel wrote:I struggle with any team that requires too much swapping. All I do is lose. I wish I knew how you guys get away with it. I've tried clone-dancer teams and end up dying to the damage being dealt while I'm swapping pets. I've tried Sunlight teams only to have the same issue.
Rule of thumb: swapping costs a turn, so only swap if you will get more than a turns' worth of benefit from it. Even on teams that are designed around voluntary swapping, you still want to minimize swaps. For example the opening Cyclone/swap/Raindance costs 3 turns for a ton of damage; but after the first one it's swap/Cyclone/swap/Raindance, a cost of 4 turns, and usually only worthwhile if you can get the full duration on all 3 opponent pets.

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Re: A o E oh My

Post by Kpb321 » July 22nd, 2014, 6:05 pm

It is if you look at it on the same website as the other links.

http://www.wowhead.com/petability=282

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Re: A o E oh My

Post by Vek » July 23rd, 2014, 12:19 am

Poofah wrote: Bleat is already 45 base (15 each pet), it's one of the highest heal-per-turn abilities in the game (behind Wish(50), Consume Corpse(50), Healing Stream(48)
Then I don't want to know how good The Good Stuff is, that ability is insane.
I thought Bleat was lower than that.

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Re: A o E oh My

Post by Poofah » July 23rd, 2014, 12:47 am

The Good Stuff is 24 to each backrow pet, so 48 total under ideal conditions. Avoiding the front pet seems like an important part of the design (like Pheromones), so I think there's no danger that they'd change it to be Avalanche-like.

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Re: A o E oh My

Post by Vek » July 23rd, 2014, 1:38 am

Poofah wrote:The Good Stuff is 24 to each backrow pet, so 48 total under ideal conditions. Avoiding the front pet seems like an important part of the design (like Pheromones), so I think there's no danger that they'd change it to be Avalanche-like.
A silly me. Don't have the pet, must have been fooled by the animation. Was sure it healed all pets.

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Re: A o E oh My

Post by Regillixavatar » July 23rd, 2014, 8:26 am

Poofah wrote:Yes, but a QoL improvement for you is a QoL downgrade for your opponent. Your opponent is supposed to have ways to counter you.

AoE is currently very strong, but it has drawbacks: the damage is high, but it scales down against less than 3 opponents; and AoE/sweeper strats impose tactical inflexibility, ie Clonedance really really wants to open with the Cyclone pet. If you remove these drawbacks, then AoE is very strong, full stop. AoE in 5.4 vs 6.0 is analogous to Haunt in 5.3 (high damage, significant drawback) vs Haunt in 5.4 (high damage, high convenience).
Well it isn't exactly a quality of life improvement since I almost never use AOE pets (my current clonedancer team I made just to collect wins like candy). If a team is 100% about AOE damage they are going to be swapping a lot which means that you can easily counter by swapping and healing your own pets (I have done this in the past) but I have a feeling that these teams will continue to be fairly rare.

What is much more likely is that a player using a Mechanical Pandaren Dragonling for their AOE/Decoy will see a use for Thunderbolt after the first enemy pet goes down...and we all know its never fun to be stuck using your 1 move that does weak damage

Now if they want to fix Haunt I am all for it! That move is wicked broken still and could really use a CD

P.S. There is always Blinding Poison to solve this XP

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Re: A o E oh My

Post by Poofah » July 23rd, 2014, 10:10 am

Regillixavatar wrote:There is always Blinding Poison to solve this XP
I actually love the design of Blinding Poison, and it is probably the best counter currently to the high cd/high dmg AoEs. At 3 round cd it's overpowered, but it's competing with other overpowered abilities--in the current state of the game, 4 rd cd would probably be too weak. And it pigeonholes you into playing DAH. Not that DAH is weak or anything, but it does limit creativity.

So one potential solution to Avalanche/Thunderbolt is to give more pets Blinding Poison: but if we do that, then we have a bunch more pets with Blinding Poison, and many of those will be troublesome in their own right.

Anyway, this is not what's happening on WoD beta atm. The AoEs are getting better and more numerous ([url=http://wod.wowhead.com/petability=1287]this[/url], [url=http://wod.wowhead.com/petability=1273]this[/url], [url=http://wod.wowhead.com/npc=85009]this[/url] and [url=http://wod.wowhead.com/npc=85527]this[/url]). There is one new Blinding Poison pet but currently it's stuck at 276 speed so it won't be very effective. They made a [url=http://wod.wowhead.com/npc=83817]new and better Haunt pet[/url], but nothing to upgrade on Emperor Crab, no new Minefield pet, no new Sandstorm pet etc. So the strong 5.4 teams are getting better, but the things we are using to counter them aren't getting any additions, and there's nothing new to supplant them at the top.

I am really tired of the 5.4 metagame! And at this point WoD just looks like it will be the same, but dialed to 11.

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Re: A o E oh My

Post by Genome » July 23rd, 2014, 11:28 am

Regillixavatar wrote:Well it isn't exactly a quality of life improvement since I almost never use AOE pets (my current clonedancer team I made just to collect wins like candy). If a team is 100% about AOE damage they are going to be swapping a lot which means that you can easily counter by swapping and healing your own pets (I have done this in the past) but I have a feeling that these teams will continue to be fairly rare.

What is much more likely is that a player using a Mechanical Pandaren Dragonling for their AOE/Decoy will see a use for Thunderbolt after the first enemy pet goes down...and we all know its never fun to be stuck using your 1 move that does weak damage

Now if they want to fix Haunt I am all for it! That move is wicked broken still and could really use a CD

P.S. There is always Blinding Poison to solve this XP
You advocate fixing Haunt, and then admit that you use a Jademist, and hint that you use the DAH as well (unless you were being sarcastic...I can be a bit dense at times ;-). These two pets are right up there with the Valk in terms of broken abilities. In fact, I would hazard to say that Blinding Poison is even a wee bit more broken than Haunt, in terms of how it can disrupt your team strategy. While Haunt puts the tempo in the Valk users favor (often for good if paired with a s/s DAH and Qiraji), at least you "usually" get to perform some sort of opening (i.e. putting down a minefield or Cyclone), unless of course you are somehow slower than the Valk and he opens with Haunt. Blinding Poison doesn't even allow for this. Short CD, dmg modifier, coupled with a extremely fast pet, and you have the makings for a very frustrating opponent. I would consider Blinding Poison to be probably the best defensive move in the game, and why it was designed to also modify dmg is beyond me. Blinding poison really wouldn't be so bad if it would still allow the victim to do things that make sense, like put down frontline DoTs, traps, or Cyclones, but alas, it stops these as well. Blinding Poison's short CD also ensures that you can't swap pets effectively to try and counter it.

Raindance is right up there in cheese factor as well. Once again, we have a super-buff (and a team super-buff no less hence why the Clonedance is so devastating) with a modifier; this time a healing component. Why was Raindance designed to buff and heal? Some will say "Well, the buff only last two rounds, so it's not OP like Haunt". Without a dodge, 50% dmg reduction, or some type of stun, what is going to survive two hits of Steam Vent while the Cyclone is decimating you as well? Or, one could swap in another pet to soak a hit, but then you will have two pets at half health instead of one dead one. Give Raindance to crabs or frogs and suddenly, Valk and DAH users will be kissing their collective a**** goodbye.

I do have to agree with you about Haunt, of course. While I don't want to nerf it into uselessness, either a 50% hit chance or two round CD for it would still leave it strong, but no longer mindless and broken, or at least put it's dmg in line with most other DoTs (around 60-90 dmg per tick). Hey, a man can dream can't he?! :D
Poofah wrote:Anyway, this is not what's happening on WoD beta atm. The AoEs are getting better and more numerous ([url=http://wod.wowhead.com/petability=1287]this[/url], [url=http://wod.wowhead.com/petability=1273]this[/url], [url=http://wod.wowhead.com/npc=85009]this[/url] and [url=http://wod.wowhead.com/npc=85527]this[/url]). There is one new Blinding Poison pet but currently it's stuck at 276 speed so it won't be very effective. They made a [url=http://wod.wowhead.com/npc=83817]new and better Haunt pet[/url], but nothing to upgrade on Emperor Crab, no new Minefield pet, no new Sandstorm pet etc. So the strong 5.4 teams are getting better, but the things we are using to counter them aren't getting any additions, and there's nothing new to supplant them at the top.

I am really tired of the 5.4 metagame! And at this point WoD just looks like it will be the same, but dialed to 11.
I have to agree wholeheartedly here. Pet battling is all that I do on WoW, and my real joy is trying new team comps. Unfortunately, if we want to be competitive, we are pretty much shoehorned into either using OP pets, or their counters. I myself won't use or even level my Valk's (have one of each breed), my Jademist, or aquire a DAH as I don't want to add to the problem. So, in order to be effective and to break losing streaks, I am forced to incorporate FotM counters, which I am frankly bored of using. We have hundreds of pets to choose from, and it hurts the experience as a whole to be hesitant to try new ideas knowing that you will get wrecked by people who think that running Valk/DAH/Qiraji or Valk/Stitched/Blighthawk or Blighthawk/Jademist/Whatever or Murk/Bombling/Fossilized is somehow fun or skillful.

If WoD makes the changes that it appears it will, pretty much EVERY team that you will face in the new meta will be Haunt/DAH/Whatever (probably the Dread Hatchling as I see him paired with Valk/DAH tons now), instead of every third team like it is now....

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Re: A o E oh My

Post by Regillixavatar » July 23rd, 2014, 11:54 am

Genome wrote:You advocate fixing Haunt, and then admit that you use a Jademist, and hint that you use the DAH as well (unless you were being sarcastic...I can be a bit dense at times ;-). These two pets are right up there with the Valk in terms of broken abilities.
In my defense I started using the clonedancer last week to finish up my weekly wins quickly (since I'm spending time in Beta) and I have never used a DAH in any serious team...I just hate the damn blind so much. The majority of the time I run with either Darkmoon Tonk, Spirit Crab, and Ghostly Skull or Celestial Dragon, Xu-Fu, and Son of Animus.

I tend to avoid FOTM pets like the plague since everyone and their grandma has some great counter-strategies out there.
Genome wrote:I have to agree wholeheartedly here. Pet battling is all that I do on WoW, and my real joy is trying new team comps. Unfortunately, if we want to be competitive, we are pretty much shoehorned into either using OP pets, or their counters. I myself won't use or even level my Valk's (have one of each breed), my Jademist, or aquire a DAH as I don't want to add to the problem.
I look at pet battles the same way as I do healing raids (have all 5 healing classes at 90 and play 4 of them actively)...it's solving the same problems with a different set of tools. Some classes (pets) will always be OP but the more you know about the incoming damage (or pet abilities) the more able you are to counter them. Case in point, my spirit crab soloed two DAH the other day because the poor dear didn't know what he was doing.

I'd also like to add that Haunt DEFINITELY needs a CD of some sort to add more risk to the ability and cyclone needs some kind of nerf...

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Re: A o E oh My

Post by Poofah » July 23rd, 2014, 12:50 pm

Genome wrote:You advocate fixing Haunt, and then admit that you use a Jademist, and hint that you use the DAH as well.... Unfortunately, if we want to be competitive, we are pretty much shoehorned into either using OP pets, or their counters. I myself won't use or even level my Valk's (have one of each breed), my Jademist, or aquire a DAH as I don't want to add to the problem. So, in order to be effective and to break losing streaks, I am forced to incorporate FotM counters, which I am frankly bored of using.
I don't think there's anything discordant about this. I like to win: I use the strongest pets. I still wish they would knock the overpowered pets down a notch so other pets could make it in competitive teams. I think it's up to the game to enforce balance, not us.

Otherwise I agree pretty much completely with your points.
Genome wrote:Why was Raindance designed to buff and heal?
My guess is that this was in response to Uncanny Luck. Like weather in 5.0, Uncanny Luck seems tailor made to have teams built around it -- and although people did try these teams, they weren't very competitive. This was due to the high cost of swapping, the low upfront benefit of weather/Uncanny Luck, and the high number of turns it took for the weather/Uncanny Luck to actually pay off. To make weather more attractive, they added upfront damage to all of them, and that was successful in terms of getting people to play with weathers. So I suspect they took the same approach with Uncanny Luck, but rather than buff it directly, they iterated on it. Raindance is identical but the buff duration is shorter, and it gives you some immediate payoff, rather than having to wait a full 4 turns to come out ahead.

To be fair, Raindance is only really broken with Cyclone, because you get 9 hits that benefit fully from the +50% accuracy. For nearly every other ability, the 3 round duration is enough to limit its power. If they 'fix' the Cyclone+Raindance interaction, then Raindance should be fine.

But until then, WoD beta currently has a flying pet with Raindance and Nocturnal Strike...
Genome wrote:it hurts the experience as a whole to be hesitant to try new ideas knowing that you will get wrecked by people who think that running Valk/DAH/Qiraji or Valk/Stitched/Blighthawk or Blighthawk/Jademist/Whatever or Murk/Bombling/Fossilized is somehow fun or skillful.
Totally agree. To be fair, I have had fun/skill-intense games when both players had these type of top-tier teams (or specific counter-teams). It's just that most teams aren't evenly matched and don't push them to be skillful: most of the time they can win on raw power alone.

But many players don't want to be pigeonholed into using the overpowered pets. And certainly it's a huge impediment to new players when their first experience is watching their favorite 3 pets get stomped by Valk/DAH or clonedance. Losing is one thing: hopefully a reasonably close loss would encourage them to try again. But the incredible gap in power between the top teams and 'fun' teams means that the new player gets hopelessly destroyed -- the kind of loss that drives people away from PvP.

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Re: A o E oh My

Post by Genome » July 23rd, 2014, 1:13 pm

Regillixavatar wrote:I'd also like to add that Haunt DEFINITELY needs a CD of some sort to add more risk to the ability and cyclone needs some kind of nerf...
Actually, I have no problem with Cyclone as an AoE. I even don't mind it's synergy with Lightning weather, which I find a very cool strategy. It's Cyclone paired with Raindance that is out-of-whack right now. Those big crits in the backline are something to behold, and pray your don't have any aquatics back there ;-P. Couple that with the juggernaut of the buffed Dancer wrecking people in two hits in the front line and therein lies the problem. To further complicate this, it is very hard to counter a clonedancer team. Tidal Wave (or any clearing AoE move really), is mainly in the arsenal of Elemental-type pets. If you have an Elemental pet out front to clear the Cyclone, it might not even take two buffed Steam Vents from the Dancer to kill it, especially if it took a hit or two from the cyclone previously, heh. Of course, a well timed Sandstorm can be very effective against a Clonedancer team, but that limits your options to about two viable pets, both of which verge on or are OP in themselves. Some dodgy pets (i.e. rabbits) can do alright against the dancer itself, but the backline is still getting murdered by the buffed cyclone in the meantime, and the dancer can heal through a round or two of flurry pretty easily.

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Re: A o E oh My

Post by Kpb321 » July 23rd, 2014, 1:21 pm

I agree. Cyclone on it's own is pretty weak and barely worth using. It's only in combination with Rain Dance that it becomes good or even over powered.

Hitting on average 1 pet a round for 140 a round for 5 rounds isn't huge. When you bump that up to 85% chance to hit so you are hitting two or three pets a round and critting on half the hits that it becomes powerful.

With out Cyclone, Rain Dance isn't bad but it's also extremely predictable and counter-able. There's a reason why you don't see either of these abilities used much at all outside of this combo. It's really only the combo that is powerful enough to fit into the current meta.

As far as playing FOTM teams I'm pretty guilty of that. I just haven't gotten into pvp pet battles much. It seems like most of the fights are basically over before they start because either you have a good counter for their team or they just wreck you. I don't do much pet pvp pet battling and will probably stop completely when I get another ~100 wins to get the direhorn.

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Re: A o E oh My

Post by Regillixavatar » July 23rd, 2014, 1:31 pm

I definitely have to agree with the last two posters and I would to revise my earlier complaint about Cyclone. It doesn't need "some kind of nerf" it just needs to no longer interact with Rain Dance (or any other hit modifiers). They can leave the crit chance in to give the combo a little OOMPH

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Re: A o E oh My

Post by Genome » July 23rd, 2014, 2:06 pm

Poofah wrote:I don't think there's anything discordant about this. I like to win: I use the strongest pets. I still wish they would knock the overpowered pets down a notch so other pets could make it in competitive teams. I think it's up to the game to enforce balance, not us.
Oh, I completely agree with what you are saying about the OP pet vs. "normal" pet divide, and think that Blizz needs to address pet balance desperately in order to keep the activity enjoyable. I sometimes think that they leave nonsense like Haunt in the game on purpose to keep only the hard-core pet battlers playing, thus keeping the community small and therefore giving Blizz the excuse of not putting much R&D/resources towards it. Still, it is up to pet battlers as a "community" to compensate somewhat for Blizz's slowness to respond to obvious problems, if we want to get out of the current (and soon to get worse) quagmire.

I know that we all want to win, and sometimes it seems the only way to do so is to use those OP pets (and their respective counters). The problem with this is, by doing so, we are only compounding the problem, and further reduce our own options. In other words, short term gains for long term enjoyment loss. I know we don't pet battle to be altruistic or anything, and I am probably in the vast minority when it comes to abstaining from using to FotM pets out of some (probably misguided) guilt. I would be lying if I said that I wasn't sorely tested to use said pets after the fifth loss in a row using what would in normal instances be a strong, strategic team.
Poofah wrote:My guess is that this was in response to Uncanny Luck. Like weather in 5.0, Uncanny Luck seems tailor made to have teams built around it -- and although people did try these teams, they weren't very competitive. This was due to the high cost of swapping, the low upfront benefit of weather/Uncanny Luck, and the high number of turns it took for the weather/Uncanny Luck to actually pay off. To make weather more attractive, they added upfront damage to all of them, and that was successful in terms of getting people to play with weathers. So I suspect they took the same approach with Uncanny Luck, but rather than buff it directly, they iterated on it. Raindance is identical but the buff duration is shorter, and it gives you some immediate payoff, rather than having to wait a full 4 turns to come out ahead.
Man, you always have the best, most informative answers :).
Poofah wrote:But many players don't want to be pigeonholed into using the overpowered pets. And certainly it's a huge impediment to new players when their first experience is watching their favorite 3 pets get stomped by Valk/DAH or clonedance. Losing is one thing: hopefully a reasonably close loss would encourage them to try again. But the incredible gap in power between the top teams and 'fun' teams means that the new player gets hopelessly destroyed -- the kind of loss that drives people away from PvP.
Exactly. When I first started, my W-L ratio was horrid, as I really didn't have an understanding about synergy, or what certain pets were capable of. I was a masochist and trudged on though. Most probably wouldn't, which takes away from future strategy, players, and development. It either drives people away, or lures them into using the same pets that are causing their misery so they can compete (or feel some form of vengeance), and we wind up where we are today; saturated with FotM and Counters. Other than holding out the hope that either Blizz fixes the problem, or somehow self-regulation of OP pet use, there really isn't too much reason for optimism for the future of pet battles.

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Re: A o E oh My

Post by Poofah » July 23rd, 2014, 4:44 pm

Genome wrote: I sometimes think that they leave nonsense like Haunt in the game on purpose to keep only the hard-core pet battlers playing, thus keeping the community small and therefore giving Blizz the excuse of not putting much R&D/resources towards it.
I'm not sure it's as cynical as that. Certainly they have never been particularly responsive about addressing PvP issues. They seem to nerf patch-by-patch, e.g. FFF lasted all of 5.2 and Direhorn lasted all of 5.3, even though the problems were apparent within weeks. I assumed Haunt would follow the same pattern, and get its nerf in 6.0. But maybe they can't even be bothered to do PvP balance passes once-per-patch any more?

It's troubling. Either they think Haunt is fine and AoE needs a buff; or they don't pay enough attention to know they're wrong. Or they don't care.
Genome wrote:Other than holding out the hope that either Blizz fixes the problem, or somehow self-regulation of OP pet use, there really isn't too much reason for optimism for the future of pet battles.
PvE pet battles are getting a lot of love. There's lots of new garrison tamers with interesting new designs: 1-, 2-, and 3-pet teams with teamwide passives and/or new abilities. It's honestly more than I was hoping for.

But yes, for PvP it's grim. For all we know 99% of pet battlers just do PvE, so maybe their resource allocation is justified. But if that's the case, it's their own darn fault. If the queue were at all fun (especially for a beginner), and if the rewards were at all compelling, then they'd have a lot more pet PvPers.

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