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Why be toxic to other pet battlers?

Discuss pet battles, strategy and theorycrafting.
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Rosqo
 
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Re: Why be toxic to other pet battlers?

Postby Rosqo » May 26th, 2018, 3:47 pm

What do players expect when they run the easiest comps not stop? Oh I need to grind wins i’ll play the easiest teams. Oh I cannot drop below a 75% ratio i’ll use enough easy combos to ensure I don’t.

These activities cause the toxic feeling in the pet battle community. New players think I cannot win against these comps and experienced players think I’m gonna counter this player trying to win easy out of the queue.

I have zero qualms calling out these kind of players for ruining metas. Honestly you’re not good enough to win any other way than easy mode. Completing games on beginner mode is fine as long as you accept this. You won’t improve or learn from this and won’t become a good player.

If you run easy pets expect to be met with low opinions. What do you expect respect? Admiration? Praise? Get real, you should get called on it. I’d be much more interested in an original idea than the same thing over and over.

Also soo many people don’t like pet battles? Why on Earth are you coming here? Genuinely if you do not like pet battles why would you expect people who do like pet battles to react well to a critical attitude and attempt to ruin their fun?

What experienced players don’t like farming easy mode teams? I will always go out of my way to farm easy mode teams hard. Why? Because I respect skill over pets. I want matches to be decided by skill not pets.

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Tekulve2018
 
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Re: Why be toxic to other pet battlers?

Postby Tekulve2018 » May 29th, 2018, 7:40 pm

So
I suggest there is middle ground here.

WoW is rife with time-sink activities. Pet collecting and pet pvp do not need to be at odds.
Blizz has made a way for people tired of rep grinding to shortcut...timewalking...there are often shortcuts in WoW..I would not be opposed to "pvp earned"battlepets having an alternate route ..even the bmah.. this would allow 'strictly' collectors an alternative.

As for 'farming' FotM or OP pet users... I feel it's unnecessary to inject that much emotion into the experience .. what does a loss mean in the grand scheme of things here? There is no rating attached to your name so the play is... just play..for fun...

I have enjoyed pet pvp to 3k wins over 2 accounts and 4 years of play. I like to use lots of pets and lots of strats. I learn a lot from losses and watching vids about pet pvp. (This is a time-sink that can help those who want to pet pvp better)

You learn how players foresee and predict how a battle might play out. Some of the best matches are the ones where rng or a good choice (like not over-switching) allow a player to beat a better team ' on paper'.

Noone breaks a rule to field their OP pets...beating an OP team is not objectionable either. My pet peeves (pun intended) are when people draw out a sure loss for what could be perceived as 'spite' (maxing the time of every turn when atk options and win chance are zero)... also there are some tasteless and offensive names on some players' pets by times- unfortunate. Otherwise pet pvp is a great minigame for people who like it.

A video game shouldn't force the fan base to sink time into stuff it doesn't want to do. As one who does pet pvp, I'd rather play opponents who want to be there and enjoy it. There should be an easy way to make everyone happy. I'm pretty sure those who made a mint of selling the vengeful porcupette by doing WoW pvp know what I mean.

Tekulve

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Gráinne
 
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Re: Why be toxic to other pet battlers?

Postby Gráinne » May 29th, 2018, 11:16 pm

PvP can make you cranky. It made me cranky in Warlords. If you are disappointed in your win rate, or desperate to get X wins for something, or if you are playing a lot and seeing the SAME pets OVER AND OVER ... yeah.

The main problem is that the devs (deliberately!) insert easy to get pets that are also VERY easy to play and powerful in PvP. (Well, there's Graves, who was actually earned by playing another game ... that STILL makes me angry.)

In both 6.2 and all through Legion, at any given point, about 10 pets have comprised about half of all pets met in PvP. And the top 3 made up about 20% of what you would face. That makes the game boring and discouraging. And that makes you cranky.

I don't like being cranky, so I backed off.

So people who have played a bit learn bad reactions to certain pets. Mostly the same ones, but with individual differences depending on their tastes or experiences. I consider the Soul and Serpent scummy, but I'm fine with Crawdads and Teroclaws, for example, which some people hate. I will still chase a Graves through the queue if I see one (mostly I don't) and I will chase full-on Sunny Day teams as well, as a matter of civic duty.

In WoD, I came to the realisation that I shouldn't blame the people for playing what they play. I should blame the devs. People have a right to play by the rules the devs lay down.

But we won't see improvement until the devs impose a system that requires or encourages players to vary the pets they use. Family Brawler had its obvious weakness, but it was a breath of fresh air for a few weeks.

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Peterc
 
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Re: Why be toxic to other pet battlers?

Postby Peterc » May 30th, 2018, 3:56 am

Interesting topic

For me this statement;
Gráinne wrote:In WoD, I came to the realisation that I shouldn't blame the people for playing what they play. I should blame the devs. People have a right to play by the rules the devs lay down.
.


covers it!

Not sure the renaming of your opponents team is being 'toxic', the naming calls your pets morons not you imo.

Why do people look to cause other players problems? Is that not one of the points of PVP (both world and pet), your motivation for doing anything (as long as it is within the rules) is down to you. Want to grind easy wins with a strong team, why not? Want to stop someone grinding easy wins with a strong team, why not? What to delay someone achieving an achievement then why not? Surely if you do not want this type of interaction then stick to PVE battles.

The statement 'If you don't like world PVP play on a PVE server' applies equally to pet battles imo.

Of course if someone oversteps the rules then report them.

Peterc

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Rosqo
 
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Re: Why be toxic to other pet battlers?

Postby Rosqo » May 30th, 2018, 12:10 pm

I think there’s a difference between playing strong teams and playing toxic teams. Here’s a few screenshots of what I consider toxic teams especially the sunlight and double Teroclaw ones.
http://imgur.com/2JX2vAh
http://imgur.com/Gm3Tsoh
http://imgur.com/d0iP8eG
They aren’t high end meta teams you can see the teams I played against them successfully. There’s no proper strategy or attempt of coverage. Triple undead, sunlight and double teroclaw are all toxic for the meta.

That’s just one evening in my delightful meta.

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Gráinne
 
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Re: Why be toxic to other pet battlers?

Postby Gráinne » May 31st, 2018, 5:29 am

I don't consider those "toxic teams". I don't consider anything a toxic team. Sure, Souls, Serpents and Sunny Days annoy me, but they're not "toxic". Teams can't be "toxic". The thing you seem to keep missing is that these teams are exactly what the devs designed for in PvP. This is not only Working As Intended™, it is literally The Ideal Outcome from the devs' point of view. In a system where the rawest Knewbie McGreen can be matched against you or Disco or Brawler, it provides an element of equaliser.

You can say that designing the game to be played this way discourages the development of skill and strategy. Sure. Maybe that's the point.

The only behaviour players can do that I would call toxic is naming their pets to be taunting or offensive.

Exploits to win or disallow the other player winning are exploits or cheating rather than toxic.

Slow-rolling may be bad sportsmanship, perhaps in response to other bad sportsmanship, but being a sore loser is not in the same class with misusing pet names to carry offensive messages.

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Discodoggy
 
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Re: Why be toxic to other pet battlers?

Postby Discodoggy » May 31st, 2018, 9:02 am

Biscuit wrote:
Mehetabel wrote:Sadly, this is the exact reason why I left the pet battle discord.
I personally felt it was becoming an extremely bitter environment to be in and was slowly degrading into an echo chamber of trite resentment and elitist ideals.
I genuinely hope the BfA meta inspires a more positive attitude.


Funny, I never had any interest in joining until yesterday, when I tried to do a few battles with my Twilight Fiendling and was crushed by tclaws and souls, along with somebody using Murkalot to make things even worse. I wanted some like minded people to complain to who understood my pain, but it sounds like there's enough pain there already without bringing mine :P

I too hope that there's a PvP revival in BfA.

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Rosqo
 
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Re: Why be toxic to other pet battlers?

Postby Rosqo » May 31st, 2018, 10:50 am

What you were saying would be true if those teams were actually top end meta Gráinne. They are just troll comps. Double sunlight and random moth? Weak strategy designed under the assumption someone would run an aquatic to counter that strat. Double sunlight & idol had 2 different weather effects not sure why. Ws & 2 x teroclaw literally as one dimensional as it gets hope there’s no foxes running around. Triple undead with two haunts lack of diversity and double haunt teams are not viable.

They’re not gonna get decent win ratios in a competitive meta and are specifically aimed at newer players. These teams aren’t aimed at top level players no one half decent would lose to these consistently. I just think it’s pretty toxic to only farm new players which these players are doing. If it was genuinely top level teams I would agree with you

You’re wrong some teams are toxic triple Plushie is toxic the objective with that team isn’t to win, tottle bug teams are toxic as they aren’t even trying to win.

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Rosqo
 
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Re: Why be toxic to other pet battlers?

Postby Rosqo » May 31st, 2018, 11:04 am

Discodoggy wrote:
Biscuit wrote:
Mehetabel wrote:Sadly, this is the exact reason why I left the pet battle discord.
I personally felt it was becoming an extremely bitter environment to be in and was slowly degrading into an echo chamber of trite resentment and elitist ideals.
I genuinely hope the BfA meta inspires a more positive attitude.


Funny, I never had any interest in joining until yesterday, when I tried to do a few battles with my Twilight Fiendling and was crushed by tclaws and souls, along with somebody using Murkalot to make things even worse. I wanted some like minded people to complain to who understood my pain, but it sounds like there's enough pain there already without bringing mine :P

I too hope that there's a PvP revival in BfA.

Join the EU discord mate it’s doesn’t have all the trolls of the WCP one in there who consider triple teroclaw acceptable to use.

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Gráinne
 
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Re: Why be toxic to other pet battlers?

Postby Gráinne » June 1st, 2018, 2:43 am

Rosqo, we've done more rounds of this debate than two Sunny Day teams who just won't give up. :P

OK, let's go again to try to get to the root of it. Here's my model:

1. We have, and will continue to have, only one queue.

2. Matches per player is on a Pareto curve. A few people play disproportionately much.

3. People who practice more are on average better at the game than those who play little.

4. The result of 1-3 is that newer, weaker players are disproportionately likely to meet strong players in a single queue, against whom they will have no chance.

5. Devs want everyone entering the queue to be able to get wins at some practical rate.

6. Therefore, devs seed a number of easy-to-get, easy-to-play, strong pets that will give somewhat equalise weak players' chances of getting wins.

7. These easy-to-get, easy-to-play, strong pets become overused, not just by the relative newcomers, but by the "middle class".

8. People in the "upper class" and "middle class" get cranky as a result, because they feel they are losing unfairly, and they are sick and tired of seein' the same ol'.

9. This leads to a game in which the "upper class" and "middle class" feel that they need to gauge a handicap for themselves by playing teams that are just strong enough but not too strong.

10. Every so often, once per expansion or so, the devs change up the set of easy-to-get, easy-to-play, strong pets.

11. The devs will not disrupt PvE with frequent rolling of the bones for the sake of improving PvP. Even if that worked, we have a Tail. Dog. Wag. situation.

Now, I think you agree with all these statements as facts. If I'm wrong about that, please specify the place where we disagree.

Where I think we differ is in our approach to what I somewhat glossed over in point 7: "strong pets become overused".

I think you would say that overuse doesn't "happen"; it is caused. And you blame other players for causing it.

A couple of years ago, I blamed players too. Now, I feel that's just a waste of emotional energy. Now, I see it as a Tragedy of the Commons, and while we are free to blame whomever we want, that doesn't get us anywhere; only a system change can improve the situation.

So you can of course continue to blame other players, and to be honest I get that same irritation when I see doubles, or Sunny Day, or even Souls. But going on about it doesn't help.

All of which is of course quite separate from deliberately naming pets to be offensive.

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Rosqo
 
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Re: Why be toxic to other pet battlers?

Postby Rosqo » June 1st, 2018, 12:06 pm

I’ve talked about what makes the queue toxic in every one of my posts.

I showed examples of three different toxic teams.

Using easy pets isn’t on its own toxic running stuff like triple bs, full sunlight, triple teroclaw or Plushie is toxic.

I also consider the ‘mid’ or ‘high’ skilled players using teams to bm their opponents as toxic. How many times have you played Teroclaws who dodge and nw when they can win by attacking?

I consider players who are continually facing the same new player with a weak team to bust out the strongest possible team at their disposal to deliberately demolish their team. It’s meant to be a fun game not a one sided walkover.

I do consider people boasting about winning with the most op teams toxic and harmful to the meta. Boast about skill yes but not about face rolling some poor newbies.

You’re right that the developers do not do enough to manage this problem. Regular tweaks to the easiest pets should be carried out like every other part within wow where changes are every major patch (still several months).

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Spinning
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Re: Why be toxic to other pet battlers?

Postby Spinning » June 1st, 2018, 7:19 pm

There are people who play for the fun of it and there are those who farm the achievements. And as someone who enjoys pet battles for the immense variety of strategies and combos, I will always despise those who need the wins and nothing else.

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Digem
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Re: Why be toxic to other pet battlers?

Postby Digem » June 2nd, 2018, 7:19 am

Spinning wrote:There are people who play for the fun of it and there are those who farm the achievements. And as someone who enjoys pet battles for the immense variety of strategies and combos, I will always despise those who need the wins and nothing else.



That is the inherent problem blizz made the grind in pet pvp all about wins. So most people will grind out said wins the easiest way possible with OP or “toxic” teams. If they some how made it truly just about pvp and how you did and rated you on your pet battling skills and using different teams or pets it could be different . Even a loss could earn you some rating points if you used different pets or ones considered weaker. The system as it is now rewards only the OP teams and thus why we are stuck with those

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Rosqo
 
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Re: Why be toxic to other pet battlers?

Postby Rosqo » June 2nd, 2018, 6:00 pm

No one grasps this but a genuinely OP team is very very rarely a toxic team. Maybe triple Bone serpent falls into this category and some guise of a teroclaw team.
Toxic teams are teams designed to prevent players from enjoying the game. They are done in bad faith. Oh I hate pet battles so I will ruin it for others or I don’t need wins let’s glitch the match out. Some players even use teams specifically aimed at trolling others worst of all when it’s against newer players. I have faced some of the strongest teams during pet week which is shocking considering if you have a basic grasp of pet battles you will get wins. Say what you like about people having the choice to do this but it’s still toxic.

Much like Spinning if I meet a toxic player deliberately trolling i’ll Counter them so they can’t bully new players into quitting pet battles.

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Re: Why be toxic to other pet battlers?

Postby Drenth » June 4th, 2018, 7:17 am

Is it being toxic, isn't there banter online any more? Also maybe he was giving you a tip, using the only communication that he had. Not like you can make friends battling pets.

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Tekulve2018
 
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Re: Why be toxic to other pet battlers?

Postby Tekulve2018 » June 5th, 2018, 4:13 am

Video game devs should read a psych 101 textbook. It's in human nature to seek a sense of belonging.
A glaringly obvious trend is that many gamers like a quick, cooperative fun experience- hence the Fortnite mania.
I only mean to compare the 2 games insofar as the social piece.
I haven't played Fortnite but when gamers laugh and tease each other about the game they play, the game promotes itself.

My suggestion, in a previous post here, to create an alterate route to earning pvp rewarded pets is to give people who hate pet pvp a way to collect their pet and avoid a frustrating, negative experience for them. More happy battlepet fans and a clean -somewhat carefree- pet pvp queue is best.

This site has done a lot more to create a community of battlepet fans than Blizzard has, in game. Years ago, this site was even more "active" when gold was more challenging to earn and people traded more often through this site. Cooperative, positive social interaction can be arranged within a video game. It doesnt have to be a mindless, passionless grind that angers or discourages.

Tekulve

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Skid1989
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Re: Why be toxic to other pet battlers?

Postby Skid1989 » June 6th, 2018, 10:57 am

[quote="Gráinne"]
While in general it's probably best to keep rotating teams between families, in this case that Kid/Serp/Teroclaw team is so OP and Paint-by-Numbers simple to play that you're probably just wasting your time, and exposing yourself to unnecessary toxicity.
.
.
.
I would love to see some of our community's imagination on effective counter teams to Ghastly Kid/Teroclaw Hatchling/Bone Serpent ... I have about 17 counter teams I've tried ... I have some with 70%+ win rates at over 20 battles but I loathe this team and encounter it ALL the time. I have dubbed it my "Nemesis Team" and I refuse to play BS or TH. My most commonly used counter would be (S/S) Alpine Foxling / (P/P) Frostfur Rat / (P/S) Nightwatch Swooper ... what do you all use?

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Gráinne
 
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Re: Why be toxic to other pet battlers?

Postby Gráinne » June 7th, 2018, 7:28 am

Skid1989 wrote:I would love to see some of our community's imagination on effective counter teams to Ghastly Kid/Teroclaw Hatchling/Bone Serpent

Rosqo's Sorry Souls team looks well suited.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8426XS75CEo

I thought he faced a TC/BS combo in that, but maybe I an misremembering.

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Re: Why be toxic to other pet battlers?

Postby Mehetabel » June 20th, 2018, 9:37 am

Spinning wrote:There are people who play for the fun of it and there are those who farm the achievements. And as someone who enjoys pet battles for the immense variety of strategies and combos, I will always despise those who need the wins and nothing else.


That's a little harsh. :?

We're all playing the same game. We're all here because we love pets. Not all of us can be brilliant tacticians.

So much talk about "toxic" teams. As long as someone is playing to win then I don't believe there is such a thing. People will play to their skill levels, using the pets they have available. If one set of pets offers a better chance at winning then why is that toxic? It's like every sport and game anywhere . . . you play to win and people will use what they have to do that.

I do agree that "trolling" teams are a problem though. A full plushie team etc, with no intention of even trying to win, just wasting opponents time or hoping for a forfeit, then yeah, that's wrong.
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