Against new class hall pets!!

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Gráinne
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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Post by Gráinne » February 24th, 2017, 5:57 pm

We are suffering from unclear, incomplete, and conflicting information, and difficulty in assimilating it, I think.

From the current Wowhead PTR Artefact calc:
http://ptr.wowhead.com/artifact-calc/de ... zwFdABZcAQ

it will take just under 160M AP to attain Power Ascended, not a billion+. Power Ascended does not require max points in all traits; just all traits active.

Since AK rates haven't changed since my previous post, we are still looking at 1.4M AP per world quest on average at AK40. (I forgot to add in Emissary cache bonuses, which is a nice oversight, since it means I overestimated the number of quests needed a bit.)

So that's a bit over 100 world quests to get the artefact high enough to qualify. At 6 or 8 a day, that's still a couple of weeks of dailies, even without any Emissary cache bonuses.

P.S. It did occur to me to wonder, if you took a fresh alt out of its box at AK40, whether the Suramar questline, which is a cornucopia of AP on its own, might not do the job. My impression based on looking up the quests is that it might, or get you close, but I didn't actually collect and spreadsheet the numbers. It would be a worthy task for someone who is interested.

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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Post by Badpathing » February 24th, 2017, 6:55 pm

Gráinne wrote:We are suffering from unclear, incomplete, and conflicting information, and difficulty in assimilating it, I think.

From the current Wowhead PTR Artefact calc:
http://ptr.wowhead.com/artifact-calc/de ... zwFdABZcAQ

it will take just under 160M AP to attain Power Ascended, not a billion+. Power Ascended does not require max points in all traits; just all traits active.

Since AK rates haven't changed since my previous post, we are still looking at 1.4M AP per world quest on average at AK40. (I forgot to add in Emissary cache bonuses, which is a nice oversight, since it means I overestimated the number of quests needed a bit.)

So that's a bit over 100 world quests to get the artefact high enough to qualify. At 6 or 8 a day, that's still a couple of weeks of dailies, even without any Emissary cache bonuses.

P.S. It did occur to me to wonder, if you took a fresh alt out of its box at AK40, whether the Suramar questline, which is a cornucopia of AP on its own, might not do the job. My impression based on looking up the quests is that it might, or get you close, but I didn't actually collect and spreadsheet the numbers. It would be a worthy task for someone who is interested.
Thank you.

I have pointed out that the grind is not to 54..it's to 34 (if the achievement is the indicator) or 35 if not. Getting to 34/35 @ AK 25 is not bad. It's simply not, there is no way to debate that. When the changes come out and the AK scales etc, etc, it's going to be a similar boat.
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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Post by Badpathing » February 24th, 2017, 6:59 pm

Digem wrote:Why they didn't do something similar as they did for shaman, druid, and warlock/demon hunter pets is stupid. One didn't even need to be max level to get those around 105 and it took like five minutes of work a day on the warlock/DH pet. Took like a few minutes every 2 to 3 days of herbing on a druid and took no time on a shaman. Why the drastic work needed to be done for these new ones is beyond me
So..let me get this straight. Blizzard attempts to introduce pet content in a different way and they are stupid for it. Meaning, we want all content to be the same right? Right.

Also, and this is like beating a dead horse at this point, there are other people in this game. I KNOW! I KNOW! INSANITY! Other people who like the variety, appreciate the challenge, and love the collecting.
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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Post by Noel » February 24th, 2017, 7:29 pm

Are you postive that Power Ascended only needs 34/35 traits? Because what I see on wowhead (achievement=11772/power-ascended) is that it requires "Final artifact ability obtained" which is your 51/52nd trait (you're right it is kind of unclear right now)

If indeed it is only 35 then I'm not worried at all because 6.5 million is 3 days of questing. However I have a nagging suspicion that we need the whole 51 traits x 3 which is a TON.

So far in PTR testing it seems the latter; however they have lots of time to tweak the numbers/change their mind so I'm putting on some rose colored glasses until then.

[edit] I just looked at your artifact calculator link I see the 160 million and looks like it could be me that's confused. With this its 27ish days to do each spec which is totally fine with me.

[edit2] My rogue just finished the Suramar questline and got a huge (around 600,000 AP) from a single quest...at AK 40 it would be like 24 million :)

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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Post by Noel » February 24th, 2017, 7:39 pm

I'm leveling my DK and Monk right now!

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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Post by Gráinne » February 24th, 2017, 8:09 pm

Noel, I ain't positive of nuthin'! :) I can only go on the information and the wording Blizzard have released. I have an impulse to pick up the phone to my lawyers for a reading, but at their rates I'd be broke after two more PTR patch releases. :)

I make it 43 traits. If you had to max out, as opposed to activate, all possible traits up to Concordance/Infinite to get there, it would be 7 or 8 more. If you were looking at getting rank 50 in that last trait ... well, someone may do that someday, but it won't be me.

43 traits is a bit under 160M. That much is clear. And that's about 100 dailies, before you count in emissary bonuses - so maybe 90 dailies?

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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Post by Noel » February 24th, 2017, 8:15 pm

Yeah the thing that got me was I thought the 3/4 traits had to be 4/4, however you can get the new traits first and if that awards the achieve so be it! (Especially if we're doing it on 3 specs lol)

I'm ok with 43 traits but will most certainly wait until I get the AK 35 book for my alts then another 25 days to max to AK 40 then do it...before that is like wasting time.

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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Post by Quintessence » February 24th, 2017, 10:27 pm

Gráinne wrote:I make it 43 traits. If you had to max out, as opposed to activate, all possible traits up to Concordance/Infinite to get there, it would be 7 or 8 more.
I'm also under the impression that the final weapon level needed for each pet is currently 43.

The weapon level required to start the quest to empower your artifact (Investigating the Legion) is 35 (one point into the current 'final trait').

If you don't have 35 levels, you'll instead receive a breadcrumb quest (Greater Power For Greater Threats) in 7.2, which requires you to finish leveling your weapon.
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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Post by Digem » February 25th, 2017, 12:58 am

Badpathing wrote:
Digem wrote:Why they didn't do something similar as they did for shaman, druid, and warlock/demon hunter pets is stupid. One didn't even need to be max level to get those around 105 and it took like five minutes of work a day on the warlock/DH pet. Took like a few minutes every 2 to 3 days of herbing on a druid and took no time on a shaman. Why the drastic work needed to be done for these new ones is beyond me
So..let me get this straight. Blizzard attempts to introduce pet content in a different way and they are stupid for it. Meaning, we want all content to be the same right? Right.

Also, and this is like beating a dead horse at this point, there are other people in this game. I KNOW! I KNOW! INSANITY! Other people who like the variety, appreciate the challenge, and love the collecting.

Yet getting those first wave of pets were all different from each other right? So they couldn't have done something sort of similar yet still different but not 180 degrees different? Or our you going to think and say this was and is the only way the could implement the new pets? Is it just because you have come out in favor of this new way you will keep arguing for it no matter what right? Because there can be no other way right?

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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Post by Dolz » February 25th, 2017, 5:16 am

Badpathing wrote:So..let me get this straight. Blizzard attempts to introduce pet content in a different way and they are stupid for it. Meaning, we want all content to be the same right? Right.

Also, and this is like beating a dead horse at this point, there are other people in this game. I KNOW! I KNOW! INSANITY! Other people who like the variety, appreciate the challenge, and love the collecting.
Let me try one more time. The problem is not the that Blizzard introduced a new way to collect pets. The problem is that they are extending it in a way that is grindy, repetitive, and requires folks to devote a large amount of time to parts of the game and/or classes they don't enjoy.

"Other people who like the variety, appreciate the challenge, and love the collecting." I'm one of those folks, but I don't like the way Blizz seems to think grinding equals content.

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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Post by Digem » February 25th, 2017, 7:10 am

Dolz wrote:
Badpathing wrote:So..let me get this straight. Blizzard attempts to introduce pet content in a different way and they are stupid for it. Meaning, we want all content to be the same right? Right.

Also, and this is like beating a dead horse at this point, there are other people in this game. I KNOW! I KNOW! INSANITY! Other people who like the variety, appreciate the challenge, and love the collecting.
Let me try one more time. The problem is not the that Blizzard introduced a new way to collect pets. The problem is that they are extending it in a way that is grindy, repetitive, and requires folks to devote a large amount of time to parts of the game and/or classes they don't enjoy.

"Other people who like the variety, appreciate the challenge, and love the collecting." I'm one of those folks, but I don't like the way Blizz seems to think grinding equals content.
See he came out in favor of this and now no matter what he will defend it and shout down and insult any opposing idea. How this way of collecting pets completely different than anyway before is good is beyond me? I don't mind grinds as to the fact I have 860 plus unique pets all rare and all level 25, I have 300 toys and 300 plus mounts. As you can see I am a collector and a grinder. The difference is I could do all that before on one toon. My main the one I choose to play on. If I needed an alt it was easy to no grind at all like the druid,warlock shaman pets etc... or could be bought.
He fails to see that difference intentionally or not. To have to grind 3 weapons to max on an alt one has zero interest in is excessive plain and simple. Guess what I will do it. But I also see the big picture he claims to "see" and know this is a turn off for most and will hurt the pet scene over all but he will "claim" it is good for "reasons".

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Re: Concerns about new class hall pets!

Post by Paladance » February 25th, 2017, 7:13 am

Gráinne wrote:We are suffering from unclear, incomplete, and conflicting information, and difficulty in assimilating it, I think.
Aye.

There's one thing I couldn't get until I saw the Wowhead sim, so I guess it's worth to mention it:

There's no 20/20 trait anymore! It's all converted to the new ranks.

I wonder only how the conversion process is going to go… Will one be able to regain these X/20 points after doing the questline? Maybe one shouldn't invest AP in that trait anymore? :/
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Re: Concerns about new class hall pets!

Post by Gráinne » February 25th, 2017, 7:38 am

Paladance wrote:There's no 20/20 trait anymore! It's all converted to the new ranks.

I wonder only how the conversion process is going to go… Will one be able to regain these X/20 points after doing the questline? Maybe one shouldn't invest AP in that trait anymore? :/
In 7.2

a) that trait will disappear
b) the extra power of that trait will be given to all weapons, even if they never filled it
c) all the AP you put into that trait will be refunded to your weapon, so you can re-assign it to the new 7.2 traits

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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Post by Gráinne » February 25th, 2017, 8:11 am

Digem wrote:To have to grind 3 weapons to max on an alt one has zero interest in is excessive plain and simple.
It is. It is excessive. It is bad. It is a lazy way to stre-etch content. It is a pointless grind. I half expect to see a pet for "Infinite 50/50 on a Female Dwarf Frost Mage", for "Infinite 50/50 on a Male Dwarf Frost Mage", "Infinite 50/50 on a Male Dwarf Fire Mage", "Infinite 50/50 on a Female Troll Fury Warrior", and on down through all possible combinations of race, spec, gender.

Or how about "Kill two million boars in Ellwyn Forest on a Male Undead Assassination Rogue with no hair and Face #1?", followed by "same, with Face #2", followed by...

But, to be honest, the requirement to max a character bothers me more than the rest. You will do very well to get 1-100 in 50 hours. Then comes the very painful Legion levelling, another 15. As things stand, I really believe each weapon will end up in the 10-20 hour range after that. It's the 65+ hours spent levelling a character you hate that is really repugnant.

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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Post by Digem » February 25th, 2017, 9:55 am

Gráinne wrote:
Digem wrote:To have to grind 3 weapons to max on an alt one has zero interest in is excessive plain and simple.
It is. It is excessive. It is bad. It is a lazy way to stre-etch content. It is a pointless grind. I half expect to see a pet for "Infinite 50/50 on a Female Dwarf Frost Mage", for "Infinite 50/50 on a Male Dwarf Frost Mage", "Infinite 50/50 on a Male Dwarf Fire Mage", "Infinite 50/50 on a Female Troll Fury Warrior", and on down through all possible combinations of race, spec, gender.

Or how about "Kill two million boars in Ellwyn Forest on a Male Undead Assassination Rogue with no hair and Face #1?", followed by "same, with Face #2", followed by...

But, to be honest, the requirement to max a character bothers me more than the rest. You will do very well to get 1-100 in 50 hours. Then comes the very painful Legion levelling, another 15. As things stand, I really believe each weapon will end up in the 10-20 hour range after that. It's the 65+ hours spent levelling a character you hate that is really repugnant.

Thank you exactly my point. I would much rather new pets be "earned" thru I don't know actual pet battling. So either pvp or pve pet battling since they are battle pets after all. At least this way I would be actually using my pets to get more versus pointless leveling of an alt.

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Re: Concerns about new class hall pets!

Post by Paladance » February 25th, 2017, 12:03 pm

Thank you for the info on the AP redistribution! So lazy of me. But hey, my most improved druid is still 46! :oops:
Gráinne wrote:I half expect to see a pet for "Infinite 50/50 on a Female Dwarf Frost Mage", for "Infinite 50/50 on a Male Dwarf Frost Mage", "Infinite 50/50 on a Male Dwarf Fire Mage", "Infinite 50/50 on a Female Troll Fury Warrior", and on down through all possible combinations of race, spec, gender.

Or how about "Kill two million boars in Ellwyn Forest on a Male Undead Assassination Rogue with no hair and Face #1?", followed by "same, with Face #2", followed by...
Finally we do know the real purpose for a more complex customisation of Demon Hunters! :)

Maybe there would be also a requirement "while wearing/wielding X"… How much accounts one would have to create? Business, business. Until servers fall. :P

Jokes aside, is this list up to date so one'd take a look on the questlines?

(Note: The Legionfall rep is already required for the Pathfinder, unless you mean getting a first paragon chest aswell.)

EDIT: The details on purchasing the DK pets are contradictory now. The post says that you can purchase a pet after empowering the respective spec's weapon. But the Unlisted Pets say that you need to empower everything before you are able to buy ANY of the pets. (I hope not! :roll:)
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Re: Against new class hall pets!!

Post by Noel » February 25th, 2017, 12:29 pm

Pretty clear anyone with a ridiculous amount of pets is going to do the pathfinder grind so no problem there, also having a pet "carrot" at the end of my trip is fun too...way better than farming for two months for a fox kit etc (I'll take long predictable over RNG every time!)

Power Ascended 3x seems a bit much but I think now that we've looked it over its not nearly as bad as we first thought;

Now of course my attention is on ... why doesn't class X have a class pet?...

*back to levelling my monk*

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Re: Concerns about new class hall pets!

Post by Quintessence » February 25th, 2017, 12:46 pm

Paladance wrote:EDIT: The details on purchasing the DK pets are contradictory now. The post says that you can purchase a pet after empowering the respective spec's weapon. But the Unlisted Pets say that you need to empower everything before you are able to buy ANY of the pets. (I hope not! :roll:)
Hm, I'm not sure where you see contradictory info on the Unlisted Pets page and the PTR thread.

I've updated the Unlisted Pets page to clarify that to purchase each DK pet you must have the corresponding empowered artifact that's reached weapon level 43. Each pet is tied to each spec's weapon.

Hopefully that makes sense. Let me know if you're still confused. ^^;
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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Post by Badpathing » February 25th, 2017, 3:10 pm

Digem wrote: See he came out in favor of this and now no matter what he will defend it and shout down and insult any opposing idea. How this way of collecting pets completely different than anyway before is good is beyond me? I don't mind grinds as to the fact I have 860 plus unique pets all rare and all level 25, I have 300 toys and 300 plus mounts. As you can see I am a collector and a grinder. The difference is I could do all that before on one toon. My main the one I choose to play on. If I needed an alt it was easy to no grind at all like the druid,warlock shaman pets etc... or could be bought.
He fails to see that difference intentionally or not. To have to grind 3 weapons to max on an alt one has zero interest in is excessive plain and simple. Guess what I will do it. But I also see the big picture he claims to "see" and know this is a turn off for most and will hurt the pet scene over all but he will "claim" it is good for "reasons".
As if you are doing any differently :)

And the difference between you and me (well, let's be honest...ONE of the differences), is that I acknowledge that this game is not tailored specifically for me or my habits. You erroneously think I "fail to see the difference", which is .. well, stupid. I clearly see the difference. The only failure is your ability to see that I accept change, and you do not.

I hate the dual prestige grind, but guess what; I'll do it if they don't change things. You are going out of your way to target me for not agreeing with you, and that's fine. In the end I'll most likely be happy with the game because of my position, and you will not.
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Re: Against new class hall pets!!

Post by Badpathing » February 25th, 2017, 3:24 pm

The big miss, I think for the dissenters here, is that WoW has long been working to build into all activities in game, a rich reward system.

Everything you do gives AP. You get rep for WQs, you get loot from shoulder enchants, you get legendary drop chance incrementation and on and on; that's just Legion.

Look at mounts, and toys, and achievements and transmog. They are tied into ALL sorts of activities. Why is it so hard to adjust to the facts that:

a) pets are going that direction too
b) there is the possibility that pets added are not exclusively put in for pet collectors

I fully acknowledge that someone who might not really want to collect pets, can now get a trio of pets (dk) for their efforts.and then...what if, just WHAT IF, after that, they find a new passion for pet collecting and an entire new avenue of entertainment opens for them in the game. That is the intent.

Pets are not 100% for pet collectors. If you are being honest with yourself, you can see that. ANYTHING in the world that is collected is because someone said, "hey, I want to collect those". For everyone accusing me of being an asshole because I disagree with the complaints, and I'm pretty frank about the 'why', I'm sorry it feels that way to you.

This game changes, sometimes for the bad, most times for the good. Want evidence? You are still playing it.
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