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Against new class hall pets!!

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Digem
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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Postby Digem » February 11th, 2017, 11:35 pm

Ranok wrote:
Quintessence wrote:This argument could also be used for why cageable class-specific pets (in the future) would be a good thing. The game isn't made for only those with a lot of time or desire to level multiple characters. What better way to allow access to a larger audience than to make these pets cageable?


Cageable means just pick them up on AH. Which is about the easiest way to get them. This totally trivializes (and probably pisses off) the folks who spent lot of time and energy leveling up an alt because they wanted that pet too.



Or it gives the player a choice. Do the grind and get yourself or buy it if the grind for a particular pet isn't ones thing. With them being cagable say if I am an altoholic I can get the class hall pets. Then sell extra for gold or trade for say pvp pets if one doesn't like pvp. This way I could focus on what I like. Best of both worlds for all

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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Postby Paladance » February 12th, 2017, 4:03 am

I hope the flame has expired, and picking it up again wouldn't have achieved anything.

I'm not going to quote all of you, because I'm afraid it'd become TL;DR. :( I'm sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused.

---

To be (extremely? :P) picky, the accomplishment of levelling an alt part can be denied by character boosts; one could, possibly, de facto buy the pets for 500-600k (current EU side, at least) each.
I'm not saying this to undermine the concept from scratch; rather, ensure that all that could be discussed, is discussed.

I still don't want to level an alt, or participate in PvP just for a pet.
I understand, however, that denying a (meaningful) reward to these who enjoy these activities, is wrong.

Is a pet a good reward? Maybe. Each to their own. I can imagine some poor falcosaurs being forgotten as soon as the mounts are earned. I guess that's a source of certain "pain"; a bit of jealousy, but also a feeling of wasted opportunities -- similarly to that forest of Broots.

The problem with the main idea is that life, uh, finds a way. I remember that one day I actually wanted to see what's up with these Bloody Coins, and get a Vengeful Porcupette "naturally". Then I saw all these "WTS Bloody Coins" (for a non-tradeable mount) and concluded, maybe incorrectly, that it doesn't make sense anymore. One could still try doing it right, but it still requires another people with specific approach. (One still needs to earn that other toy I believe? Correct me if I'm wrong)

At least you can still decide how to level a character, the boosts and RaF bonuses don't change that. Unless every but one way gets nerfed, at least. :mrgreen:

Reaching the other side of discussion, there are thoughts on "what is Blizzard up to". From the global perspective, I can imagine that pets are yet another collection kit such as mounts, transmogs or heirlooms that have been treated way more strictly. I don't find this entirely true (because they don't have a separate minigame, for example), but it could explain people in charge seeming disconnected from the collectors. And I'm sure someone has already written that (there or not), but it met no continuation.
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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Postby Uduwudu » February 12th, 2017, 5:53 am

Quintessence wrote:...
Cageable class pets would also help alleviate the pressure on collectors that may WANT to level multiple alts, but simply don't have the time to do so.

This is why I'm entirely in favor of keeping the pets as they are for now, but changing them to cageable come next expansion.


I second this opinion. And I think it is good for the economy to have a few more cage'able pets. It's also strange that some lower level and fill-in and less used pets in many zones, are not cage'able ... it's downright weird, actually.

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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Postby Uduwudu » February 12th, 2017, 6:08 am

Quintessence wrote:...
Now, instead of just complaints, I've read a handful of collectors stating they're simply quitting collecting altogether. And even more statements about putting collecting on the back burner. The burn out is real in Legion (and not just for pet collectors).

Are there other reasons why people are quitting collecting? Most likely. But the exclusive pets are not helping. Since the other factors are unknown, I can only point out suggestions for changes/compromise to alleviate what I know to be an issue for some.


Not sure it is just a burn-out, but like I posted on another thread, I compare my collection to another on the top, and there probably are 100 to 200 pets that I won't be able to get? Because of the previous ... whatever! This limits collecting and makes it more difficult, but the nature of the game is that the folks that collected yesterday are not the folks collecting today, so ... presumably ... it all evens out in the end. But the person that was there before, can get a 5K score, while the rest of us, will simply meander around/past 4K? (Per your site).

Maybe a better solution would be for some of those older pets to be available, but they have to be quested and worked for, like we used to for just about anything? Thus, the ability to collect and get further up the scale shifts a bit, towards the quantity rather than the quality, but it allows for more pets to be acquired.

As I mentioned, on your site ratings, I am past 4K, however, I do not see how I can get that much higher, simply getting one, maybe 2 pets per week, and bringing them up. Heck, this week for Pet Bonus ... and I haven't used any of it yet ... have no pets to bring up, because there are almost none to get, and I am not finished with the Argent Tournament! Only been able to get 2 of the Falcosaur's, etc, etc, etc ... but I do not see any more on the horizon, since the Hall Pets are buried somewhere ... my Shammie got one ... and the other characters? Nothing!

There goes "collecting". Might as well kill Stamp Collecting, too, since the old Queen Victoria stamps can't be acquired, either, and neither can the WW1 airplanes, or the ..., or the ... or the ships in the Renaissance, or the ... harpsichords in ...

I say, we allow collecting, or we don't. And stop goofing around in the middle and changing ideas and processes. But I do not think that Blizzard is organized in this content, and thoughtful about it whatsoever, when, MORE THAN LIKELY, tomorrow it's a different set of programmers and designers, because all the previous ones are gone, unsatisfied and/or fired, due to the lack of logical thought above them, in favor of some precocious idiot with stupid ideas! Now, you wonder where is the consistency ... but it does mean ... as Q has mentioned, that someone is likely out of touch with the playing community, or the new guy could careless about the old process and wants a new one ... very typical in the computer world, because it is an ego thing ... not a "design" or anything else issue. In fact, that is what killed Everquest and will kill this game! The question is (only) ... when?

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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Postby Quintessence » February 15th, 2017, 7:53 pm

Update from the 7.2 PTR that may sway collectors in favor of or favor against the upcoming class pets:

Monk and Death Knight pets are purchasable from Class Hall vendors. Costs 10k Order Hall Resources each.

To see the pets on the vendor, you must first complete the class mount quest line.

To purchase the pets:
  • Death Knight - Must empower and fully unlock all artifact weapon traits for each DK spec (Blood, Unholy, Frost). Each pet requires the corresponding fully unlocked artifact weapon.
  • Monk - Requires the achievement Power Ascended (empower and fully unlock all traits for one artifact weapon).

(Rogue still TBA)

TLDR; farm all the Order Hall Resources and artifact power. Because 'we heard you like gating and grinding, so we added some gating to your grinding and grinding to your gating so you can grind while gated.'

-----

Up until this point, I was all for the new class pets. Level up alts? Sure, I'll do it.

However, now that it's been revealed that we'll need to farm artifact power to fully unlock artifact traits for 4 different weapons on 2 classes (for some collectors, classes that they have zero desire to actually play)... I have a sinking feeling in my gut.
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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Postby Darkchyld » February 15th, 2017, 8:54 pm

Although having those classes at 110 is annoying, keep in mind artifact knowledge is also increasing to level 40 with the AP gain being 400000% more. So level up to 110, keep your AK work orders going and then you can make relatively short work of it once you hit AK40.

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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Postby Dolz » February 15th, 2017, 10:08 pm

Quintessence wrote:Update from the 7.2 PTR that may sway collectors in favor of or favor against the upcoming class pets:

Monk and Death Knight pets are purchasable from Class Hall vendors. Costs 10k Order Hall Resources each.

To see the pets on the vendor, you must first complete the class mount quest line.

To purchase the pets:
  • Death Knight - Must empower and fully unlock all artifact weapon traits for each DK spec (Blood, Unholy, Frost). Each pet requires the corresponding fully unlocked artifact weapon.
  • Monk - Requires the achievement Power Ascended (empower and fully unlock all traits for one artifact weapon).

(Rogue still TBA)




If this makes it live, I'll probably be leaving WoW all together. For the most part I've enjoyed this expac, but the amount of grinding and RNG manure has been sucking the fun out of it. I don't have unlimited time to devote to the game and these new requirements are ridiculous for folks that don't have these classes. The DK one is especially galling.

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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Postby Paladance » February 16th, 2017, 1:14 am

The Death Knights start from 55, so you need to put more effort, ha!

"We want to reward you for dedication to your class" = fine.
But I'm not sure if anyone enjoying their class has been so eager to unlock everything related to their weapons?
All classes use similar ways to empower their weapon anyway.

This or they've assumed that everyone has a Death Knight for exploration and Shadowmourne.

@Quintessence, what do you think about the communication here? I can't get rid of a feeling that it'd look a bit different if there was an appropriate feedback on official forums (though maybe is it that there is no relevant way anymore?). I don't observe Twitter, so I can't tell if you were alone in your effort -- but hats off for your determination and patience.
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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Postby Quintessence » February 16th, 2017, 1:47 am

Paladance wrote:@Quintessence, what do you think about the communication here? I can't get rid of a feeling that it'd look a bit different if there was an appropriate feedback on official forums (though maybe is it that there is no relevant way anymore?). I don't observe Twitter, so I can't tell if you were alone in your effort -- but hats off for your determination and patience.


There's a thread in the official Bnet Pet Battle forums about 7.2 content, but it's not dedicated exclusively to class pet feedback.

I'd create a proper feedback thread in the 7.2 PTR Bnet forums, but I'm honestly exhausted at this point.

I feel like I've been yelling into the void and/or created an echo chamber around myself. (Am I simply being unreasonable thinking that these class pets are going too far? Is my point of view held by the majority? Or am I part of the vocal minority? I really can't tell anymore.)

If anyone wants to start a constructive feedback thread focused on the upcoming class pets in the official 7.2 PTR Bnet forums (EU and/or US), I'd be happy to chime in to add my 2 cents and encourage others to add their feedback as well.

I'm not sure what else I can say regarding the class pets. I'm not advocating "dumbing down" the game. I simply think some compromises could be made on both sides of the argument. What harm could making class pets more collector-friendly? *shrug*
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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Postby Paladance » February 16th, 2017, 2:49 am

Never considered PTR forum as I didn't join the tests, thank you. I'll try to get in touch.

I'm a young person, but as far as I've seen, when it comes to sharing opinions, every point becomes inevitably perceived as an extreme one. It's like a Godwin's Law but in a more general scale. One isn't eager to "go all the way"? A bigot! One has a friend that belongs to a minority? A freak catering to propaganda! >_>'

et cetera et cetera…

Maybe this is it that showing any other point than extremes isn't worth it anymore? That would explain a certain episode of this topic, though I still think that isn't a very plausible way. ;)

I can imagine now a big whiteboard with a GRIND on one side, GENEROSITY on other side and all pros and cons of these line by line, measured simply by quantity… 8-) Okay, perhaps I'm going too far.

Please, don't feel alienated or looking crazy. You've done nothing wrong. *a very careful hug*
We (as we all over here) just need a bit of cooperation I guess and I'm meaning that in a technical way. :)
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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Postby Desi » February 16th, 2017, 3:04 am

Quintessence wrote:To purchase the pets:
  • Death Knight - Must empower and fully unlock all artifact weapon traits for each DK spec (Blood, Unholy, Frost). Each pet requires the corresponding fully unlocked artifact weapon.
  • Monk - Requires the achievement Power Ascended (empower and fully unlock all traits for one artifact weapon).

This is crazy, I hope it doesn't go live.

I was ok (but a bit annoyed) with leveling a DK and Monk to 105-110 in order to get the pets, but having to play them like a goddam main is ridiculous. Actually I'm more annoyed now at the time I've put in so far with leveling these toons since I don't see how I can possibly finish both off to that level, when they are unwanted alts.

Overall Blizzard have been going a bit over the top with this xpac. Too much content and crazy levels of grinding/timesinks to achieve certain things. They really need to reconsider the decisions they are making.

Edit:

It only just clicked that for the DK pets, 3 artifact weapons have to be maxed. What.the. I won't be putting anymore time into that toon....

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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Postby Merana » February 16th, 2017, 7:03 am

And here I thought I was finally done with the AP grind after unlocking all the traits on my main. Barf. I don't mind WQs but I've done over a thousand by now, I think I've had enough for a while. What makes it worse is that I mained a DK every expac since WotLK but absolutely hate the class changes for Legion and decided to go back to my Priest from classic/TBC times. Yay, hindsight. Had I known this was going to be a thing I might've sucked it up and played that DK instead. :(

Edit:
The one thing I can imagine to add to the requirements for unlocking the pets to make it even worse of a gated grind would be the achievement for 500 order hall missions completed. As I'm feeling very cynical right now I'm a little surprised that isn't already part of it. :roll:

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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Postby Digem » February 16th, 2017, 8:33 am

Desi wrote:
Quintessence wrote:To purchase the pets:
  • Death Knight - Must empower and fully unlock all artifact weapon traits for each DK spec (Blood, Unholy, Frost). Each pet requires the corresponding fully unlocked artifact weapon.
  • Monk - Requires the achievement Power Ascended (empower and fully unlock all traits for one artifact weapon).

This is crazy, I hope it doesn't go live.

I was ok (but a bit annoyed) with leveling a DK and Monk to 105-110 in order to get the pets, but having to play them like a goddam main is ridiculous. Actually I'm more annoyed now at the time I've put in so far with leveling these toons since I don't see how I can possibly finish both off to that level, when they are unwanted alts.

Overall Blizzard have been going a bit over the top with this xpac. Too much content and crazy levels of grinding/timesinks to achieve certain things. They really need to reconsider the decisions they are making.

Edit:

It only just clicked that for the DK pets, 3 artifact weapons have to be maxed. What.the. I won't be putting anymore time into that toon....



Am I reading this right? We have to get a DK and monk to max level and max out one weapon on a monk and all three on a DK to get these pets? Really where the hell is the time for all this? What is maxed out? Level 34 or level 54? My main hunter up to now only has it BM weapon to 48 and MM to 38 and I refuse to do SV as hunter class or isn't melee and my druid has its balance 34 and healing 36 and I haven't bothered with the others.
They can't expect us to do this can they? Going to max level and unlocking all three relic slots meaning doing all class hall quests would be a lot but this is ridiculous.
I thought I only had to go to around 105 like with my lock and druid to be able to start the attempts at getting the pet.
They better not do this.

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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Postby Quintessence » February 16th, 2017, 8:59 am

Digem wrote:What is maxed out? Level 34 or level 54?


Guide from Wowhead about empowering artifact weapons in 7.2: http://www.wowhead.com/news=260191/unlo ... d-gilded-s

In Patch 7.2, players with 35 or more Artifact Traits will be given a special questline to unlock new Empowered artifact traits and 4/4 ranks on their old 3/3 traits.


After your weapon is empowered, a new set of talents will be available for you to fill out. As far as I understand, "fully unlocked" includes learning these new weapon traits.

Darkchyld wrote:keep in mind artifact knowledge is also increasing to level 40 with the AP gain being 400000% more.


This is true. Artifact Knowledge is increasing, meaning each AP token thing will reward more per. However, it still takes time to go out and collect each AP token. WQs, dungeons, emissaries, raids, etc. All of these activities take time, potentially taking time away from working on and progressing a main toon.

Obligatory disclaimer: This is all PTR content. Things could change. Nothing is set in stone. I sincerely hope that the devs will reconsider how these new class pets are implemented, and they'll make the pets more collector-friendly/accessible.
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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Postby Uduwudu » February 16th, 2017, 10:04 am

Quintessence wrote:...
I'd create a proper feedback thread in the 7.2 PTR Bnet forums, but I'm honestly exhausted at this point.

I feel like I've been yelling into the void and/or created an echo chamber around myself. (Am I simply being unreasonable thinking that these class pets are going too far? Is my point of view held by the majority? Or am I part of the vocal minority? I really can't tell anymore.)
...


And your efforts are very much appreciated, and I am sure that you take the members' information here with you.

As I mentioned before, and when seeing these things listed, it is fairly obvious that no one at Blizzard even plays the game, otherwise they would not have the DK have all three weapons maximized before one could get a pet ... that's downright sadistic and pathetic and someone needs to lose their job for trying to be funny!

I also mentioned that Blizzard, and many other software companies, think they are above the law and they can do anything they want. I filed a complaint with the State Attorney General against Blizzard and their intentionally disabling the mouse controls on the game in Legion, and their reply came back about something 3 months earlier, which the State AG ignored, by saying that they can do nothing about it.

Even the law, is not protecting the consumer anymore, and many of these companies create something called "EULA", and then think they can hold you to it. No "EULA" can stand up in court, first of all they are not filed anywhere, and second of all, there is no legal standing when they change it whenever they feel like it, and think that you are too stupid to even bother reading it.

Worse yet, is that at least 2 gaming magazines, intentionally, ignored my letters and copies and it pretty much shows who owns them, and why those magazines are there ... to support their games and trade outs ... and no game EVER has anything wrong with them! It's all about sales and steal as much as you can!

I doubt that the Pet Battle Game, will improve much, and that these folks even have any idea what they are doing, and how screwed up they are being in doing this, and some day, someone has to call their bluff and I hope on that day, that one million players quit, so that some bigger guns in Blizzard will start firing people that did not listen, and intentionally ignored folks and some good logic, and created malicious intent, rather that a game for everyone.

Having been here since the start (minus a month or two), I almost doubt I will be here too much longer, comparatively speaking, specially when I read things like what "Q" posted, and go ... you gotta be kidding me ... and I can see "Q" just about double over and cry in pain, and find this whole thing just sick ... as do I and others who play the class and then realize what they have to go through to get it done. I, myself, am NOT planning on touching my DK who is at 100, and I now seriously doubt that I will even take him up one level, and will likely delete him ... I'm getting tired of insults by Blizzard, and empty promises.

I do not expect the game to give me vanilla content, but neither do I need, or want any kind of emergency room content and behavior ... they can take their game with a flying ____ and I will wish them good luck at that point, but I will tell you, that in the past 30 years, the companies/groups I have left, have gone down, and almost died. Why? They did not honor the good in their work, and did not respect the folks involved. In my book, they deserved to die, and lose the large amount of business they lost.

In the end, employees do matter, and the customers are of utmost importance, and disrespect should not be allowed and watched carefully. A programmer saying that about a DK, is showing that he has never played a single class in this game without the cheat codes, and brought a single weapon to its fullest in any class. In shor, he's a total ash-hole and should not be allowed to speak for the game!

Sorry Blizzard, but it's your game to lose, not mine. And if you are not big enough to talk to your players ... you do not deserve the game!

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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Postby Baldulf » February 16th, 2017, 10:48 am

No, I don't think you're in the minority, Quin. I'm wasn't even planning on maxing out all three weapons on my MAIN; I certainly don't want to do it on an alt.

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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Postby Digem » February 16th, 2017, 11:06 am

Quintessence wrote:
Digem wrote:What is maxed out? Level 34 or level 54?


Guide from Wowhead about empowering artifact weapons in 7.2: http://www.wowhead.com/news=260191/unlo ... d-gilded-s

In Patch 7.2, players with 35 or more Artifact Traits will be given a special questline to unlock new Empowered artifact traits and 4/4 ranks on their old 3/3 traits.


After your weapon is empowered, a new set of talents will be available for you to fill out. As far as I understand, "fully unlocked" includes learning these new weapon traits.

Darkchyld wrote:keep in mind artifact knowledge is also increasing to level 40 with the AP gain being 400000% more.


This is true. Artifact Knowledge is increasing, meaning each AP token thing will reward more per. However, it still takes time to go out and collect each AP token. WQs, dungeons, emissaries, raids, etc. All of these activities take time, potentially taking time away from working on and progressing a main toon.

Obligatory disclaimer: This is all PTR content. Things could change. Nothing is set in stone. I sincerely hope that the devs will reconsider how these new class pets are implemented, and they'll make the pets more collector-friendly/accessible.


Right now one has to go to 54(maybe 58 not sure) to max out one weapon and then we are getting new talents at 7.2 on top of it which will take a weapon to 60+. To do this on a main and on one weapon is a long grind that needs raiding and mythic+'s to kinda speed it up. To do it on three weapons for a main is near impossible reason why their are cries when specs get buffed or nerfed. Now they want me to do this on an alt? Are they out of their minds? Where is the time to do all this? I hope to God this isn't implemented. We really need to let blizz know this isn't feasible. Hope this site really lets blizz know this. This could be th straw that makes me quit after 10 plus years and 860 plus pets later. This would be very hard on a main to do but ridiculous on an alt that doesn't raid or do mythic+'s. Heck I don't have the time to do all that and am struggling to keep up on my main. There is no way in hell I could do that on an alt nor would want others to carry my alt on raids and mythic+'s. Heck WQ can be tough on undergeared and me being underskilled on them.

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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Postby Digem » February 16th, 2017, 11:07 am

Baldulf wrote:No, I don't think you're in the minority, Quin. I'm wasn't even planning on maxing out all three weapons on my MAIN; I certainly don't want to do it on an alt.



I agree one spec maxed on my main is a lot how the hell can one do 3 on an alt?

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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Postby Killerkarl » February 16th, 2017, 1:02 pm

I have been keeping up with the Prestige grind on both an Alliance and Horde toon so far, with my Horde character a few levels behind my Alliance. I have continued grinding it even though I have the 2nd pet on my Alliance character because I figure they are going to be adding more pets to the Prestige system. This grind almost has me burned out now, cannot imagine how I will be feeling if I have to add all of these artifact power grinds also.

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Re: Revolt against new class hall pets!!

Postby Desi » February 16th, 2017, 1:47 pm

Digem wrote:They can't expect us to do this can they? Going to max level and unlocking all three relic slots meaning doing all class hall quests would be a lot but this is ridiculous.
I thought I only had to go to around 105 like with my lock and druid to be able to start the attempts at getting the pet.
They better not do this.


Oh god, all those class quests and mythic dungeons /headdesk

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