WoD pet news speculation and datamined

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Quintessence
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Re: WoD pet news speculation and datamined

Post by Quintessence » August 5th, 2014, 12:58 am

Bexak wrote:Is there any information about whether the battlepet level cap will be increased from 25 in WoD?
Developers have stated that the level cap will not be increased past 25 at the launch of WoD.

It's anyone's guess if Blizzard will change this in a future content patch after the release of the expansion. But as far as we know, 25 will continue to be the level cap.
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Re: WoD pet news speculation and datamined

Post by Quintessence » August 5th, 2014, 4:46 pm

Day 12 menagerie battle: [url=http://wod.wowhead.com/npc=85685]Stitches Jr.[/url]

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Single pet fight, but has [url=http://wod.wowhead.com/petability=1089]Boss[/url] buff as well as a passive, [url=http://wod.wowhead.com/petability=1390]Iron Thread[/url]. (YUCK)

This fight is hard for multiple reasons. Two damage reduction passives, Stitches [ability]Enrages[/ability], and he does team-wide damage ([url=http://wod.wowhead.com/petability=1273]Cleave[/url]). Not only that, but he's undead which means he will rez for one last round just to pelt your near death pet with one more hit.

It's annoying and frustrating, but doable. Dealing with so many factors makes this fight a not-so-fun one.

I couldn't determine any set move pattern; Stitches seemed to use his abilities randomly. Another irritation to add to the list.

I had so-so success with an [pet]Unborn Val'kyr[/pet] (B/B 1,2,2), [pet]Zandalari Toenibbler[/pet] (P/S 2,1,2) and [pet]Gu'chi Swarmling[/pet] (H/H 1,2,2).

It mainly came down to whether or not Stitches used Enrage on round 2. My strategy went: [ability]Curse of Doom[/ability], [ability]Unholy Ascension[/ability], swap to Toenibbler, [ability]Black Claw[/ability], [ability]Flank[/ability] until near death, re-apply Black Claw before it dies, Swarmling steps in with [ability]Chew[/ability] + [ability]Chomp[/ability] or [ability]Burrow[/ability] to avoid being hit after Stitches uses Enrage.

Not the best at all. The swarmling just barely makes it at the end. And, like I mentioned earlier, if Stitches uses Enrage on round 2, it's pretty much over for my second pet and my team as a whole. He just has too much health (AND a second life) to whittle down before he can cleave the rest of my team to death.

[url=https://twitter.com/TheCrafticus/status/496753769317957632]LeCraft mentioned on Twitter[/url] that Stitches' passive could be reduced, but we'll see what happens.
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Re: WoD pet news speculation and datamined

Post by Annalise » August 5th, 2014, 5:17 pm

Did you mean you used Curse of Doom instead of Haunt? Haunt shares the slot with Unholy Asc.

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Re: WoD pet news speculation and datamined

Post by Wipet » August 5th, 2014, 5:31 pm

one strategy taht worked for me for sticthes was the use of red cricket with the aoe healing and 2 high power crab (imperial crab with 357 and another crab at 325)with the healing wave on second slot,
the cricket is able to brink the abomination around 50% of life and the same time healing the 2 crab almost full.the imperial crab should survive the needed for the kill

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Re: WoD pet news speculation and datamined

Post by Kpb321 » August 5th, 2014, 5:34 pm

You might try a mr wiggles. Uncanny luck + hoof make for a pretty good combo as it pushes it up to always hitting on the high end of things. An aquatic pet with a big critter attack would be ideal but there isn't really anything that fits that criteria.

I also wonder if chew + Swarm wouldn't end up working better as you'd have the shattered defenses debuff up before chew hits but it would lock you into swarm so you wouldn't be able to burrow to try to avoid a big hit from him using enrage.

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Re: WoD pet news speculation and datamined

Post by Quintessence » August 5th, 2014, 5:44 pm

Annalise wrote:Did you mean you used Curse of Doom instead of Haunt? Haunt shares the slot with Unholy Asc.
Yes, thanks for pointing out that error! Fixed the post.
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Re: WoD pet news speculation and datamined

Post by Quintessence » August 5th, 2014, 5:49 pm

Thanks to a tip from [profile]Ooryl[/profile], the Hydraling was found on the beta.

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The Writhing Mire in Spires of Arak. Inside a cave you'll find an egg that summons a rarespawn. Killing the rarepsawn allows you to loot the egg again and collect the pet. Yay!
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Re: WoD pet news speculation and datamined

Post by Poofah » August 5th, 2014, 8:54 pm

Quintessence wrote:My strategy went: Curse of Doom, Unholy Ascension, swap to Toenibbler, Black Claw, Flank until near death, re-apply Black Claw before it dies, Swarmling steps in with Chew + Chomp or Burrow to avoid being hit after Stitches uses Enrage.
Try Haunt instead of UA, and try a PP Kneebiter instead of a Toenibbler. Doom, Haunt (freeswap), Black Claw, Hunting Party, Hunting Party, Bloodfang. In theory that should be 3k dmg despite his buffs, and without Enrage being up. The Kneebiter could easily die early but it should definitely get 2 attacks, and your third pet can then still win with Surge/Ion Cannon.

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Re: WoD pet news speculation and datamined

Post by Quintessence » August 5th, 2014, 11:07 pm

Poofah wrote:Try Haunt instead of UA, and try a PP Kneebiter instead of a Toenibbler. Doom, Haunt (freeswap), Black Claw, Hunting Party, Hunting Party, Bloodfang. In theory that should be 3k dmg despite his buffs, and without Enrage being up. The Kneebiter could easily die early but it should definitely get 2 attacks, and your third pet can then still win with Surge/Ion Cannon.
Poofah, it never ceases to amaze me how well you come up with strats! *bows*

This worked PERFECTLY. Granted I only tested it 5 times, but it worked every single time. My Kneebiter isn't even a P/P, just a P/S but it still did well. Even in the event where Stitches killed my Kneebiter before it could use Bloodfang, Ion Cannon finished the job.

I also had 2 pets still standing every single time, whereas all my other attempts with different teams barely left me with one pet at the end.

So far this has been the only strat that I've used that's had a consistent win rate. It seems very specific, though, which worries me somewhat. These challenges should be tough but not to the point where it requires very specific pets.
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Re: WoD pet news speculation and datamined

Post by Kynthea » August 5th, 2014, 11:48 pm

Did you guys see that they added a new Pet Tamer master in Darkmoon Faire and a new obtainable pet: Syd the Squid?
[url]http://www.wowhead.com/news=242332/wod-beta-new-darkmoon-faire-games-vanity-loot-pet-tamer-and-more[/url]

It looks more like an octopus to me, but its still really cool looking from the previews. I haven't had the luck to get one yet. Not sure how to defeat the battle pets just yet.

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Re: WoD pet news speculation and datamined

Post by Poofah » August 6th, 2014, 12:02 am

Quintessence wrote:It seems very specific, though, which worries me somewhat.
I agree. The 'boss' buff is additive with other buffs/debuffs, even though it's percent-based. So for example Howl (+100%) on a boss pet results in 100%-50%+100%, or 150% damage, when intuitively it should be 100%. We've discussed it on this forum a bit but I don't think it's widely known how the combat math works -- it's not like this is explained ingame. Without that trick, his damage reduction is pretty daunting.

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Re: WoD pet news speculation and datamined

Post by Quintessence » August 6th, 2014, 6:17 am

Kynthea wrote:Did you guys see that they added a new Pet Tamer master in Darkmoon Faire and a new obtainable pet: Syd the Squid?
[url]http://www.wowhead.com/news=242332/wod-beta-new-darkmoon-faire-games-vanity-loot-pet-tamer-and-more[/url]

It looks more like an octopus to me, but its still really cool looking from the previews. I haven't had the luck to get one yet. Not sure how to defeat the battle pets just yet.
I used [url=http://battlepetroundup.com/2014/08/04/christoph-von-feasel/]Liopleurodon's strat[/url], but used a Blue Clockwork Rocket Bot instead of the Darkmoon Tonk. Same concept though; a hard hitting mech pet to take down Mr. Pointy.

I imagine the droprate for Syd the Squid will be similar to that of the Darkmoon Eye.

Poofah wrote:I agree.
LeCraft [url=https://twitter.com/TheCrafticus/status/496885073669406720]seemed to agree[/url] as well. Stitches Jr. was tuned down so we'll see how difficult he is the next time he shows up at the garrison.
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Re: WoD pet news speculation and datamined

Post by Poofah » August 6th, 2014, 8:22 am

Quintessence wrote:LeCraft [url=https://twitter.com/TheCrafticus/status/496885073669406720]seemed to agree[/url] as well. Stitches Jr. was tuned down so we'll see how difficult he is the next time he shows up at the garrison.
Maybe you could point out to him that Howl+Boss buff = 150% dmg? It's easy with that trick; it's extremely hard without. By the same token, beasts of fable and celestials are reasonable challenges normally, but trivial with the Howl trick. It's a mechanics issue with percent-based buffs/debuffs working additively, more than a balance issue with any particular boss pet.

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Re: WoD pet news speculation and datamined

Post by Grarn » August 6th, 2014, 9:00 am

Quintessence wrote:Thanks to a tip from [profile]Ooryl[/profile], the Hydraling was found on the beta.


The Writhing Mire in Spires of Arak. Inside a cave you'll find an egg that summons a rarespawn. Killing the rarepsawn allows you to loot the egg again and collect the pet. Yay!

Sadly this looks like it's a one time only. I had killed the rare about a week ago while leveling through Spires and it's loot table hadn't been added yet. Going back now I can click the egg, but it doesn't trigger the spawn. Oh well, I'll make sure to get it with an alt next time through.

On the plus side, pets like this and the ooze in Nagrand won't be RNG grind to acquire if they stick to this when it goes live.

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Re: WoD pet news speculation and datamined

Post by Ryken » August 6th, 2014, 4:28 pm

I did the level 100 quest chain on the Rylak island in southern Shadowmoon before the new beta build, at the end of it, a baby Rylak egg spawned as your reward, but it had a placeholder. I'm 99% sure this is where the Albino chimera comes from, but it wasn't in. I might have time to do the quest line again on a pre-made tonight to check, but if someone else does, let us know if the egg at the end has the pet in it now :)

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Re: WoD pet news speculation and datamined

Post by Ryken » August 6th, 2014, 4:37 pm

Quintessence wrote:So far this has been the only strat that I've used that's had a consistent win rate. It seems very specific, though, which worries me somewhat. These challenges should be tough but not to the point where it requires very specific pets.
On the contrary, I believe this boss is good and there should be more like it. There are a few teams that can beat it, but you're right, not consistently. And that is the point, I believe. The boss uses his skills in a random order, he could use his massive swings and utterly destroy a pet, or he can use his team swing, and a team heal can keep up pretty well. He can use berserk at a random time and one shot a pet, or he can waste berserk on a team swing etc.

The fact there IS a specific team that can consistently win is what worries me, but the fact not everyone might have it is the only saving grace. Its about time pet bosses come with randomness, where you can't entirely predict whats going to happen. Pet battles, especially repeatable ones you'll be engaged with for a while, become entirely too stale when you go in with the expectation of winning EVERY SINGLE TIME, because the strat is flawless. The only thing that makes me feel better about it is in some cases we've had to get specific pets (albeit, most of us have them all).

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Re: WoD pet news speculation and datamined

Post by Poofah » August 6th, 2014, 5:50 pm

I can't tell what you're saying.

If you build a team well, and react to the boss' ability choice well, then you should win. If you think that part of building a good team is being flexible and having ways to react to random boss ability choices, then I'd agree. In that respect, a lot of current pet bosses are pretty easy and die to robotic strats, and I wouldn't mind seeing more reactive fights. But if you think that the boss should be able to coinflip into a win despite the player doing everything right, then I disagree completely.

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Re: WoD pet news speculation and datamined

Post by Ryken » August 6th, 2014, 6:13 pm

What I'm saying is it is good that we have bosses that have tough strategies. For example, Quint's experience of "Well I have a team that CAN win, but it only works IF the boss does his X ability on turn Y, but if he does it on another turn, then its a loss". Its okay if players have those experiences with their pet retinue, and if there is a few team set ups that CAN win every time, then so be it. It doesn't "force" the player to get those pets, it rewards players who does and encourages them to get them. But I beat Lil' Stitches a in a variety of ways, all of them were touch and go, and never 100% solid. And that was good, I went into a fight not expecting to win, and it challenged me.

I was responding to Quint's assertion that it would be problematic if there was only one specialized team that could -consistently- win. And that's my issue, there is too much consistency. I mean, I'm pretty sure we all leveled up our pets to 25 once we had a sure fire strat. I'd strongly doubt anyone had that much -fun- leveling all their pets to 25. For me, it was the same thing every day, and the only variation was unlucky miss streaks, which is what I consider "bad" RNG. Good RNG is when a boss has a bunch of abilities, doesn't use them in a set order and makes you work for a win.

There will always be a perfect team that will beat trainers/bosses because of set up, and that's not a bad thing. There were a lot of teams that COULD beat it, and dare I say was the most fun encounter I've had for a while... all the other tamer have been an engage, see their abilities, create a quick counter team (does more dmg, takes less dmg) and win the first shot pretty convincingly. It's sad that when the first boss that comes around that proves difficult (but still totally do-able), the first reaction is to nerf him. And whats even worse, is the boss is doable with run-of-the-mill capturable critters, which aren't really that grindworthy, nor a barrier for newer people.

And anyway, they've said they're happy for people to have to work towards being able to beat pet encounters, and that its not a bad thing if they have to level up some pets and capture others to beat them and that not all the content should be viable for new pet battlers.

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Re: WoD pet news speculation and datamined

Post by Quintessence » August 6th, 2014, 6:26 pm

Poofah wrote:But if you think that the boss should be able to coinflip into a win despite the player doing everything right, then I disagree completely.
This sums up very nicely how I viewed the Stitches Jr. encounter, thank you!

We'll see just how much Stitches was "nerfed" once he appears in the garrison again. It may not be that much, and he might still be a tough opponent. Just a slight tweak to how much reduced damage he takes could make the fight less about RNG, and more about the player making the right team/strat choices (while keeping everything else the same and providing a challenge).
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Re: WoD pet news speculation and datamined

Post by Poofah » August 6th, 2014, 6:42 pm

Ryken wrote:unlucky miss streaks, which is what I consider "bad" RNG. Good RNG is when a boss has a bunch of abilities, doesn't use them in a set order and makes you work for a win.

There will always be a perfect team that will beat trainers/bosses because of set up, and that's not a bad thing.
Just to be really clear, I agree completely with the above. But if the boss can randomly choose abilities in an order that makes it impossible to win, despite the player choosing the best possible team/strat, then I consider that bad RNG. If the boss uses abilities randomly in a way that makes it tough but consistently winnable with the proper team, then I think that's the best possible balance. If it's frustrating at first and takes a while to figure out what the right team is, I think that's also perfectly fine.

Really the problem here is that *all* boss pets have a more-or-less predetermined solution. Because of how the 'Boss' -50% dmg buff interacts with Howl effects, using those effects results in triple the normal damage, instead of double. So no matter how challenging a boss might be using normal strats, it's always really easy with a Howl strat (Hunting Party in this case). Getting rid of that would remove a lot of the 'just win' rigid strats we have now.

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