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Discuss pet battles, strategy and theorycrafting.
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Rosalyne
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Re: 5.4 Guide to Master Tamer (levelling) + Beasts of Fable

Postby Rosalyne » October 7th, 2013, 6:26 pm

Rendigar wrote:
Nytemarerulez wrote:DMF - This teams is a winner
Darkmoon Faire - Jeremy Feasel
16 rounds
1: Mechanical Pandaren Dragonling [-] (1,2,2)
2: Pet Bombling [-] (1,1,2)
3: Carry pet

Sorry to say, it's not a winner, it's not even close. In 6 attempts I "won" once (I passed on the minefield turn so as to not have the crit-victory you had).


I've beaten the tamer first shot today and yesterday using this setup. Yesterday my Dragonling died during Fez' stun, today he was stunned by Shock and Awe so died just after the tonk rezzed, but the Bombling finished off the tonk and monkey easily.

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Re: 5.4 Guide to Master Tamer (levelling) + Beasts of Fable

Postby Rendigar » October 7th, 2013, 7:31 pm

Anasa wrote:Out of curiosity, why do you list the lower level tamers (optional) near the end of the route? I usually do them first, because the pet is less likely to die, and gets more xp if they're closer in level to the tamer's pets.

I basically reverse your route, and start with Accoste each day. I don't do all the ones you list as "optional," but I do several of them.

Yeah, if you're throwing a level 23 pet at Obalis he won't get much xp. But if you hit Obalis when the carry pet is 13-15, they get a lot more.

The main reason is if people are looking to get the greatest XP in the least amount of time they might want to skip the various tamers not in Pandaria. I am an engineer but most people are not and I also have a love of teleport items (I'm only missing 1 or 2 that are still available in the game to a Warrior that are worth having and not just a hearthstone replacement). Also, of the 4 Cataclysm tamers only 1 gives a bag of goodies (Obalis) so again people may not want to be bothered. But I list them all, just in case - I happen to do all of them most of the time (including the 2 lesser ones in the old world) because I want the XP and the extra bags of goodies the last two tamers give.

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Re: 5.4 Guide to Master Tamer (levelling) + Beasts of Fable

Postby Rendigar » October 7th, 2013, 7:34 pm

Rosalyne wrote:I've beaten the tamer first shot today and yesterday using this setup. Yesterday my Dragonling died during Fez' stun, today he was stunned by Shock and Awe so died just after the tonk rezzed, but the Bombling finished off the tonk and monkey easily.

Unfortunately while I cannot say you have exceptionally good luck, I cannot say I have horrifically bad luck, either. 5 losses in 6 fights may be too small a sampling, but it was painful enough to disuade me from trying more -- maybe someone else can do "The Work" for a full set of attempts.

I'll be posting a response to a previous post with a minor change to an old(er) strat that has worked so far quite well. Unmodified it won 10 out of 17 attempts, now I am finishing testing the modified version 20 times to see how it does.

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Re: 5.4 Guide to Master Tamer (levelling) + Beasts of Fable

Postby Rendigar » October 7th, 2013, 8:34 pm

Sïan wrote:First off, thankyou very much to Rendigar for updating and expanding even further on Phraide's great work on this guide... 'tis much appreciated!
You are very welcome, this is a great community, I am just glad I can contribute to it (even if it is only my opinion and willingness to compile existing data and test it).

Sïan wrote:For the fight against Jeremy tonight...I swapped in the carry pet to get stunned by Fez (is that his name? It should be if it isn't ;) )
It's Fezwick, actually, so pretty close. :D

And now for the serious part of the response. I took what you did and ran it thru the grinder. After 17 attempts it resulted in the following sequence (known as "The Work", thanks to Stencil):
14 14 15 14 13+14+14 6+15+15 14 15 13+13+13 14+14 = 10 wins, 7 losses, 230 turns total and an avg of 23 turns per win

I couldn't figure out what was bothering me until the end - why swap in the carry pet if you are just going to explode anyway? Fezwick will get a free hit on the dragonling when you swap him in, exactly the same as if you let him eat the stun. But the dragonling loses out on a chance to Bombing Run sooner (because he's faster than Fezwick).

I am pretty sure Stencil was the person who posted the thoughts on this fight involving this (sorry, too lazy to look it up, brain fried from the same fight 40+ times today). So here is what the modified strat looked like:

Darkmoon Faire Strategy
Jeremy Feasel - Location: Darkmoon Faire (47, 62)
Team 1: 15 rounds
vs Judgement
    - Tail Sweep > Tail Sweep > (Tail sweep if missed once) > *Healing Flame > Tail Sweep til Judgement dies
    * The healing flame is both to make sure you have enough life to survive a Shock & Awe and also to give you the Dragonkin racial when Honky-Tonk comes out. If Honky-Tonk stuns you it often is a loss, still :( It also allows you to drop the 25% damage debuff so your 3rd tail sweep will be a kill every time.
vs Honky-Tonk
    - Early Advantage > Tail Sweep until Infinite Whelpling dies
    - Switch to Mechanical Pandaren Dragonling > Breath until Honky-Tonk dies (usually twice)
vs Fezwick
    - Bombing Run > (pass if stunned) > Breath > (*Breath again if Fezwick has > 980 health) > Explode
    * Bombing Run + Explode do 444+560 on tooltips, but I have seen BR hit for only 422. If you chose to Explode instead of the second Breath then your carry pet may need to take a hit and then do 20-30 damage, which may not be what you want. On the other hand my second loss was because Fezwick killed me after the Breath so there was no Explode round.
Note: your carry pet doesn't need to participate, as it will be the only one left alive at the end of the fight and will thus receive XP. Also, while this strat has worked very well in testing a stun from Honky-Tonk (25% in theory, if he opens with it, which is a 33% chance) can cause a loss. As can the normal string of friendly misses and enemy crits.

And "The Work" was: 14 13 13 14 4+13 13 13 15 14 13 13 13 14 12 16 13+13 13 13 = 18 wins, 2 losses, 259 total turns, 14.4 avg turns per win
Last edited by Rendigar on October 8th, 2013, 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 5.4 Guide to Master Tamer (levelling) + Beasts of Fable

Postby Nytemarerulez » October 7th, 2013, 9:25 pm

Rendigar than you got to be doing something wrong- Decoy > Thunderbolt > Breath is the order - always use Decoy when it up, than thunderbolt - than Breath

Decory > Thunderbolt> Breathx3 Judgment dies - if he slows you it cool, if you don't get slow even better - usually not being slow will allow dragon to make it to fez

Breath > Thunderbolt > Breath > Decory(should be off cd if I remember) - Breath until tonk dies (either rez or dies for good), than bombo with explode

If Dragon makes it to fez you do Breath - Stun - Pass - Die for good switch to bomb explode
If bomb comes out on and he has rez you do Minefield > Zap > Fez comes hit takes 777 (if you crit that when your carry pet get no exp) - since he low enough and you have good health you be able to get explode off before fez kills you.

Since minefield can screw everything over - Instead using the Zepp would be better - follow the same as above if you get to zep while on tonk than Missile > Decoy > Missile - Tonk dies for good - Decoy block stun - missile bring hijm low enough for explode and that game over

Using the bomb + Dragon I have only lost once and that was when I was testing not using minefield - either won by mistake or forfeit on the turn I know explode would went off.

For now Mech Dragon + Zepp will do you good if you don't want to worry about the minefield - I got another team in the work which I think is even faster and gets pass all that RNG


ON side note on the beginners guide I had my buddy check out - Admin as pointed people to this guide which needs to be corrected as this is the vet guide - beginner guide is 2x pets that can beat all the MOP tamers - so if they going to point here than we need 2x pets that can beat all the tamers (just beat them - not carring about speed) old beginner guide still works expect for thunder spirit and air spirit cuz of the change

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Rendigar
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Re: 5.4 Guide to Master Tamer (levelling) + Beasts of Fable

Postby Rendigar » October 7th, 2013, 9:29 pm

Nytemarerulez wrote:Rendigar than you got to be doing something wrong

I'll give it another try tomorrow and I'll keep detailed records of every match to show what the results are. But they failed 5 out of 6 attempts already. I did not "do something wrong", I followed what you posted exactly. And the dragonling died BEFORE decoy became available the 2nd time every time but one.

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Re: 5.4 Guide to Master Tamer (levelling) + Beasts of Fable

Postby Nytemarerulez » October 8th, 2013, 2:58 am

NO your right my bad retested it and it just keep losing but I think I might have a better one - if you could help test that would be great.

19 rounds -

1 Clockwork Gnome (1,2,1) - didn't test using 2,2,1 - this might be better has it give more damage on tonk but 5% extra miss chance
2 Mechanical Pandaren Dragonling (1,2,2)

Vs Judgment

Build Turret > Metal Fist/Railgun > Metal Fist/Raligun > Build Turret > Repair - in my testing Judgment died here

Vs Tonk
In Repair Mode > In Repair Mode > Build Turret > Metal FIst/Raligun / Metal Fist > Build Turret > Metal Fist > You should die for good here

Switch to Dragonling > Bombing run (should be enough to kill him for good)

Vs Fez
Breath > Explode > Bombing run hits and kills him carry pet get xps

I did it with Metal fist has it had the higher accuracy but if you use Railgun I bet it would go even faster.
Last edited by Nytemarerulez on October 8th, 2013, 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Rendigar
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Re: 5.4 Guide to Master Tamer (levelling) + Beasts of Fable

Postby Rendigar » October 8th, 2013, 5:28 am

Nytemarerulez wrote:No need you right team not going to work - been testing out last few hours and now I can't seem to win any more - been trying 1st team out just in a different order

19 rounds -
1 Darkmoon Zeppelin (1,2,2)
2 carry pet
3 Mechanical Pandaren Dragonling (1,2,2)
Vs Judgment
Decoy > Switch to Dragonling > Thunderbolt > Breathx3
Use Decoy if there 1 round left on attack that reduce your attack

Vs Tonk
Decoy/ThunderBolt/Breath - use which ever off CD until Dragon is dead or until tonk get under 338(after his already rez) and if Dragon still alive switch to Zepp - Decoy > Missile

If Dragon dies before tonk get under 338(after rez) bring in Zepp - and once he under 338 Decoy > Missile
Vs Fez
Missile > Explode - should only take 1 missile to get in explode range - since carry pet in slot 2 he auto come out over Dragonling who still alive so he get the eps

Thanks for verifying your strat does not work, saves me an hour of testing after work today.

I think one of the biggest problems with any fight against these guys is how random Honky-Tonk can be. At least vs the Infinite Whelpling, if he does NOT stun you with Shock & Awe, will bring the tonk down to the range that 2 Breath's from the dragonling will kill him (every time but one the Breath does 349+, and his self-rez puts him at 349 health). There were a number of fights where he would Shock&Awe or MIssile to open, then Lock-On (giving the whelp a 2nd attack he would NOT get vs a human opponent) and then the whelp would get to force the self-rez before dying. If he then did Missile and it missed the whelp even managed to kill him and then it would die to Fezwick. Statistically an 8.25% chance the whelp will be stunned and you will have to reset the fight, so 1 loss in 12 should be expected.

And your modified strat above, keep that in mind, Honky-Tonk will always come back after his self-rez with 349 health - so that means you need 1 Breath (which has done 349+ I would say 9 out of 10 times) or 2 missiles (which does 4 points max less than Breath, so will likely rarely hit for 349, probably hitting for 345 most times but I haven't tested it).

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Re: 5.4 Guide to Master Tamer (levelling) + Beasts of Fable

Postby Nytemarerulez » October 8th, 2013, 5:49 am

yeah that team not going to work either - I updated my post I used Metal fist but it might be even faster with Railgun if you want to take the chance at a higher miss.

during my test Tonk would always use a shock and awe but the repair helped off set some damage and brought some time.

For the old team I had whelp make it fez and die after stun leaving dragon to finish the job and no need for decoy - dang blizz for making this fight harder

going to my other account and will test with railgun most I think it can do is speed up the fight a few rounds

Using railgun ends it on 16 - follow the same order expect you don't use reapir until you on Tonk and by the time you die for good you should have 2x Turret out and have used Railgun - leaving you to finish Tonk with a bombing run - leaving you to Breath > get stun> Pass > Explode > Bombing run hits and you win - only RNG is Tonk and what he does

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Re: 5.4 Guide to Master Tamer (levelling) + Beasts of Fable

Postby Rendigar » October 8th, 2013, 6:12 am

Nytemarerulez wrote:Using railgun ends it on 16 - follow the same order expect you don't use reapir until you on Tonk and by the time you die for good you should have 2x Turret out and have used Railgun - leaving you to finish Tonk with a bombing run - leaving you to Breath > get stun> Pass > Explode > Bombing run hits and you win - only RNG is Tonk and what he does
I am not sure how this could work - if you Bombing Run on the Tonk it disappears when the Tonk dies, it doesn't stay in the air to land after. You have to open with Bombing Run vs Fezwick and he stuns you > Pass > Breath > Explode - as long as Fezwick is under 980 heath (approx). Any other method and your carry pet is going to take hits from Fezwick. Or maybe I just misunderstood Bombing Run's mechanics... I can't test now, at work. :(

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Re: 5.4 Guide to Master Tamer (levelling) + Beasts of Fable

Postby Nytemarerulez » October 8th, 2013, 6:17 am

Rendigar wrote:
Nytemarerulez wrote:Using railgun ends it on 16 - follow the same order expect you don't use reapir until you on Tonk and by the time you die for good you should have 2x Turret out and have used Railgun - leaving you to finish Tonk with a bombing run - leaving you to Breath > get stun> Pass > Explode > Bombing run hits and you win - only RNG is Tonk and what he does
I am not sure how this could work - if you Bombing Run on the Tonk it disappears when the Tonk dies, it doesn't stay in the air to land after. You have to open with Bombing Run vs Fezwick and he stuns you > Pass > Breath > Explode - as long as Fezwick is under 980 heath (approx). Any other method and your carry pet is going to take hits from Fezwick. Or maybe I just misunderstood Bombing Run's mechanics... I can't test now, at work. :(


your wrong Bombing run is a debuff and it says after 3 rounds it land doing damage to the "current" enemy not the enemy you used it on

So far this seems like a good team - I like Metal FIst better has it put Jud at enough low health that turret finish it and you only have to survive 1 round with tonk (case he opens with Shock & Awe and you get stun) before you get fully healed

Another option would use a pet faster than Judgment that could also do good damage to Tonk but have a Stun/Sleep or force a switch so you can get Tonk in first as he seems to be the hardest - I come up with many ideas but tonk seems to screw them over by not using the same attack - against Fex always does Stun, and Judgment always does Attack Increase, and Speed Debuff 1st

Crystal Spider [BB} (1,2,)
Peddlefeet[-] (1/2, 1, 1/2)
Ashstone Core [-] (2,1,1)

These are the pets I found that can be faster than Judgment force him out and work on Tonk - thinking best would be Spider and just play a slow game of stall healing or Ashstone Core and using Overcharge + Burn get Tonk dead quick

We might have to settle on a long turn team as I running out of ideas, hopefully more will come to me in my sleep - long turn match wouldn't be 2 bad since it only once a month for 7 days, but still looking. Why did blizz have to change him no one ever used him in PVP really

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Re: 5.4 Guide to Master Tamer (levelling) + Beasts of Fable

Postby Rendigar » October 8th, 2013, 7:35 am

Nytemarerulez wrote:your wrong Bombing run is a debuff and it says after 3 rounds it land doing damage to the "current" enemy not the enemy you used it on
Ah, OK, thanks I guess I just never tried using it that way. Interesting idea, will have to try it out some time. I am not sure a longer turn cycle solution is needed if the method I posted (which usually wins on turn 13) continues to work. I think I'll want to run it through another 20-40 test cycles to be really comfortable putting it in the guide (which I still can't update, breaking it in 2 is, I fear, going to be the only thing I can do to keep my sanity).

I can accept something that loses 8.25% of the time if nothing better comes along, could probably even go as high as 15% and still not mind it (about 1 loss every 6-7 attempts). If someone comes up with a strat that can kill the tonk in such a way as he can NOT stun you (I'm assuming the Fezwick stun will always occur, though it could be absorbed by decoy or other method - he will ALWAYS open with it, unlike the Tonk and Shock&Awe) then it would definitely be superior - winning 100% in 16-18 turns is better than 85% of the time in 13 (for many people).

The DMF is only around for a week, and it's not something you can really do in the cycle of all the Pandaria tamers, so I am not as worried about it with regards to needing to reset and heal once in a while (hopefully not more than twice in any given week).

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Re: 5.4 Guide to Master Tamer (levelling) + Beasts of Fable

Postby Pixyl » October 8th, 2013, 8:50 am

This is a fabulous guide! I just noticed a couple of pets that are listed in strategies, but not in the pet list at the top that you might want to add

    Second Major Payne Team
      Blue Clockwork Rocketbot (essential)

    Beasts of Fable (Flight 1 – F1) - - 6-10 rounds Ideal: No-No ( *none of these are listed*)
      Polly [8-P/S] (1,1,1)
      Silky Moth [11-S/B] (1,1,2)
      Crow [5-S/S] (1,2,2) (Call Darkness + Nocturnal Strike hit No-No hard)

Thank you for the wonderful help this guide gives

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Re: 5.4 Guide to Master Tamer (levelling) + Beasts of Fable

Postby Rendigar » October 8th, 2013, 10:14 am

Mareid wrote:This is a fabulous guide! I just noticed a couple of pets that are listed in strategies, but not in the pet list at the top that you might want to add

    Second Major Payne Team
      Blue Clockwork Rocketbot (essential)

    Beasts of Fable (Flight 1 – F1) - - 6-10 rounds Ideal: No-No ( *none of these are listed*)
      Polly [8-P/S] (1,1,1)
      Silky Moth [11-S/B] (1,1,2)
      Crow [5-S/S] (1,2,2) (Call Darkness + Nocturnal Strike hit No-No hard)

Thank you for the wonderful help this guide gives

Thanks, I'll have to get them in there - although in the case of the No-No flyers none of them are listed because really ANY flyer with a speed of 310+ will work, and the list is pretty exhaustive then. Still maybe it's better to list them and not need them, rather than not list them and need them. :D

I tried splitting the guide into two posts and I still couldn't update, so I guess there are just times when the server is too overloaded to handle a large post like this. I'd really love for an admin to tell me (us) what if any restrictions/limitations there are so I can better prepare the guide to stay within those limitations. If I keep bashing my head against this "no posting" wall for much longer I don't know what I'll do...

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Re: 5.4 Guide to Master Tamer (levelling) + Beasts of Fable

Postby Kalium » October 8th, 2013, 11:39 am

Thank you for this :)

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Anasa
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Re: 5.4 Guide to Master Tamer (levelling) + Beasts of Fable

Postby Anasa » October 8th, 2013, 12:25 pm

Rendigar wrote:I tried splitting the guide into two posts and I still couldn't update, so I guess there are just times when the server is too overloaded to handle a large post like this. I'd really love for an admin to tell me (us) what if any restrictions/limitations there are so I can better prepare the guide to stay within those limitations. If I keep bashing my head against this "no posting" wall for much longer I don't know what I'll do...


Might I suggest a text file with the current post (including markup)? Then you can update your text file "on the fly," but only have to cut/paste the whole thing once per day.

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Re: 5.4 Guide to Master Tamer (levelling) + Beasts of Fable

Postby Rendigar » October 8th, 2013, 2:31 pm

Anasa wrote:Might I suggest a text file with the current post (including markup)? Then you can update your text file "on the fly," but only have to cut/paste the whole thing once per day.

I have a word document that I maintain which includes all the BBC codes and everything else. It's not a case of needing to cut/paste once a day it's a case of almost every time of day when i try to cut/paste the new version into the post it fails. I've tried different browsers, different times of the day, and entirely different physical networks, all with the same results. And the failure response comes back close to instantly so there is something the server is blowing up on most of the time (but not always, because I posted it in the first place, and I can't even EDIT - PREVIEW the existing post w/o the error).

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Re: 5.4 Guide to Master Tamer (levelling) + Beasts of Fable

Postby Ril » October 8th, 2013, 2:39 pm

First off, thanks a lot for keeping this guide up to date. It has helped me out a lot since I can barely muster the time to do the dailies, let alone figure out efficient strategies.

Imho the Vampiric Batling should remain listed as an option, but not as a top team pet. Namely, Zusshi is a fight where it shines. Just because it has become unaccessible it doesn't mean that nobody uses it so info on it should be kept. Of course, other hard to get pets should be handled the same, and, imho, any pet that is bought exclusively with real money.

Edit:

For Zusshi, I strongly suggest to go with a croc instead of a razortooth. I haven't tested the latter but the simple fact that the croc can hit Mollus in both dive rounds makes it superior, along with superior breeds. When Mollus enters, go:

(Mollus acidig goo) rip -> surge (Mollus dives) -> (Mollus surfaces) blood in the water.

Of a razortooth will work just well, but a croc might reduce the impact of bad rng a bit further, and maybe gain a round. I will update with the number of rounds I needed today for illustration.

*update*: Zusshi took 13 rounds with a Croc/Vampiric batling comp. The relevant part of this is, the croc died in round 7 to Mollus' dive. it didn't get off the second blood in the water, but could surge before diving.

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Re: 5.4 Guide to Master Tamer (levelling) + Beasts of Fable

Postby Rendigar » October 8th, 2013, 3:54 pm

Ril wrote:Imho the Vampiric Batling should remain listed as an option, but not as a top team pet. Namely, Zusshi is a fight where it shines. Just because it has become unaccessible it doesn't mean that nobody uses it so info on it should be kept. Of course, other hard to get pets should be handled the same, and, imho, any pet that is bought exclusively with real money.
The funny thing is pets that are bought with real-world money are sold on the AH's and are more available than the Vampiric Batling. So as with others who argue your point, we must agree to disagree and it will remain out of this guide. If someone tackles an "Elitest/Veteran" guide they will no doubt include it as it is "best" in the specific role for that fight.

Ril wrote:For Zusshi, I strongly suggest to go with a croc instead of a razortooth. I haven't tested the latter but the simple fact that the croc can hit Mollus in both dive rounds makes it superior, along with superior breeds.
Snarly is the preferred pet for slot 1 vs Seeker Zusshi and the Electrofied Razortooth is not even mentioned as an alternate. The only place the Electrofied Razortooth is (marginally) better is the Burning Pandaren Spirit fight. Every other fight with Snarly listed the first strike ability of Surge is superior to the Electrofied Razortooth for exactly the reasons you mention, which is why I chose Snarly and the other crocs (and have tested with them).

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Re: 5.4 Guide to Master Tamer (levelling) + Beasts of Fable

Postby Nytemarerulez » October 8th, 2013, 5:43 pm

Yeah thinking of just using the old team and just will have no decoy to stop the stun so bombing run will work

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