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Increased chance to miss at lvl 25?

Discuss pet battles, strategy and theorycrafting.
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Zooster
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Increased chance to miss at lvl 25?

Postby Zooster » December 26th, 2012, 1:03 am

Morning, just done the usual 16 dailies and noticed a circa 25% increased chance to miss :cry:

Did I just have the worlds crappiest RNG today or have I missed a hotfix / nerf / change over the Holidays?

Damn annoying tbh.

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Faultygiant
 
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Re: Increased chance to miss at lvl 25?

Postby Faultygiant » December 26th, 2012, 1:14 am

not seen any hotfixes posted & when i did mine thay seemed to go ok,think it was probably just a oneoff for you,Happy christmas & be lucky.

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NathKnave
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Re: Increased chance to miss at lvl 25?

Postby NathKnave » December 26th, 2012, 7:42 pm

I'm not sure if it's new or not, but I've been getting really frustrated with attacks that are supposedly guaranteed to hit missing. Things like Blood in the Water missing a bleeding target. If it really can miss sometimes, the tooltip is very misleading.

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Lowbrowdeluxe
 
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Re: Increased chance to miss at lvl 25?

Postby Lowbrowdeluxe » December 27th, 2012, 2:04 am

Blood in the Water has been missing fairly often for a 'never miss a bleeding target' ability. I only end up using it against elementals for the most part, so I don't know if that has any effect. I do know I've never seen it miss outside of a trainer battle. Equally irritating, Mana Surge seems to miss 2 out of 3 a HUGE amount of time fighting trainers and only 1 out of the 3 every other time outside of trainer battles.

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Hellomynameis
 
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Re: Increased chance to miss at lvl 25?

Postby Hellomynameis » December 27th, 2012, 2:14 am

Lowbrowdeluxe wrote:I do know I've never seen it miss outside of a trainer battle. Equally irritating, Mana Surge seems to miss 2 out of 3 a HUGE amount of time fighting trainers and only 1 out of the 3 every other time outside of trainer battles

It doesn't surprise me to hear that a rare quality pet misses more against epic and legendary quality pets. It's the same with players, only based on difference in levels. Miss chance increase based on the difference in quality and/or level, purely guessing here, but it seems logical.

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Suspiro
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Re: Increased chance to miss at lvl 25?

Postby Suspiro » December 27th, 2012, 8:41 am

Lowbrowdeluxe wrote:Blood in the Water has been missing fairly often for a 'never miss a bleeding target' ability. I only end up using it against elementals for the most part, so I don't know if that has any effect. I do know I've never seen it miss outside of a trainer battle. Equally irritating, Mana Surge seems to miss 2 out of 3 a HUGE amount of time fighting trainers and only 1 out of the 3 every other time outside of trainer battles.


Just to be precise here, you're seeing a "Miss" after using Blood in the Water or is the target pet sidestepping/dodging the ability? It feels like pet attacks have two rolls, hit vs miss chance and hit vs dodge chance. I think those "never miss x target under y condition" abilities simply skip the hit vs miss roll but not the hit vs dodge roll. That is, of course, unless you actually saw a "Miss" pop up when using the ability, in which case, I'll have to rethink my theory.

Also, Mana Surge has a base accuracy of 80% which would partially account for why you see it miss so often.

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NathKnave
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Re: Increased chance to miss at lvl 25?

Postby NathKnave » December 27th, 2012, 2:05 pm

Suspiro wrote:Just to be precise here, you're seeing a "Miss" after using Blood in the Water or is the target pet sidestepping/dodging the ability? It feels like pet attacks have two rolls, hit vs miss chance and hit vs dodge chance. I think those "never miss x target under y condition" abilities simply skip the hit vs miss roll but not the hit vs dodge roll. That is, of course, unless you actually saw a "Miss" pop up when using the ability, in which case, I'll have to rethink my theory.


I've definitely been seeing it miss, the animations for misses and dodges are pretty easy to tell. I can tell when I'm going to see a miss because the attacking pet will move to one side or the other of the pet it's attacking. An attack that hits is always straight on. A dodge is also fairly obvious when the attacked pet moves out of the way of an attack.

I also understand that epic and legendary pets are going to be harder to hit, I just wish they didn't say an attack will always hit under certain conditions if it clearly won't.

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Suspiro
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Re: Increased chance to miss at lvl 25?

Postby Suspiro » December 27th, 2012, 2:10 pm

NathKnave wrote:
Suspiro wrote:Just to be precise here, you're seeing a "Miss" after using Blood in the Water or is the target pet sidestepping/dodging the ability? It feels like pet attacks have two rolls, hit vs miss chance and hit vs dodge chance. I think those "never miss x target under y condition" abilities simply skip the hit vs miss roll but not the hit vs dodge roll. That is, of course, unless you actually saw a "Miss" pop up when using the ability, in which case, I'll have to rethink my theory.


I've definitely been seeing it miss, the animations for misses and dodges are pretty easy to tell. I can tell when I'm going to see a miss because the attacking pet will move to one side or the other of the pet it's attacking. An attack that hits is always straight on. A dodge is also fairly obvious when the attacked pet moves out of the way of an attack.

I also understand that epic and legendary pets are going to be harder to hit, I just wish they didn't say an attack will always hit under certain conditions if it clearly won't.


Yep, I didn't doubt that you knew the difference between the animations. My question was related to what's appearing in the combat log, but given what you said, I'll have to rethink my theory. I guess tomorrow I will be doing a ton of tests versus legendary pets using "always hit" moves to see if I can develop a methodology for how their combat table really works.

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Azmeaiel
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Re: Increased chance to miss at lvl 25?

Postby Azmeaiel » December 27th, 2012, 5:14 pm

TBH this has been a problem for around a month now, as you will probably see if you look around these and Blizzard official forums there are quite a few threads about the awful miss rate when VS most npcs. Something broke during a hotfix just before 5.1 and has never been fixed. A lot of people are experiencing 'never miss' moved constantly missing, moves simply not going off at all and a ridiculous amount of misses. Funnily enough , you cast something like the darkness move on a bad npc and you have more of a chance of hitting it than if it wasnt up :lol: im guessing its chance to make things miss is less than the current awful buggy miss rate and the move resets it.

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Talmar
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Re: Increased chance to miss at lvl 25?

Postby Talmar » December 31st, 2012, 11:13 am

I've noticed that all my pets with multiple attack attacks (younglings triple-snap, kalari's Quill's) almost never hit more than once. Even my kalari's when she goes first should be a guaranteed 2 hits usually only gets one. I understand missing once in a while but I seem to miss attacks very very often.

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Suspiro
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Re: Increased chance to miss at lvl 25?

Postby Suspiro » December 31st, 2012, 11:27 am

Talmar wrote:I've noticed that all my pets with multiple attack attacks (younglings triple-snap, kalari's Quill's) almost never hit more than once. Even my kalari's when she goes first should be a guaranteed 2 hits usually only gets one. I understand missing once in a while but I seem to miss attacks very very often.


Last that I checked, Triple Snap has an accuracy of 33% and Quills has an accuracy of 50% which may account for what you're seeing.

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Graven
 
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Re: Increased chance to miss at lvl 25?

Postby Graven » January 4th, 2013, 3:51 pm

Talmar wrote:I've noticed that all my pets with multiple attack attacks (younglings triple-snap, kalari's Quill's) almost never hit more than once. Even my kalari's when she goes first should be a guaranteed 2 hits usually only gets one. I understand missing once in a while but I seem to miss attacks very very often.


This. I very rarely use those type of attacks now, unless I really need a multi-hit ability to clear a cocoon or something.

"Hits 1-3 times" basically seems to mean "hits once, for half the damage of a regular attack".

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Poofah
 
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Re: Increased chance to miss at lvl 25?

Postby Poofah » January 4th, 2013, 4:50 pm

There seems to be an issue with miss chance double-dipping on these types of abilities (Triple Snap, Flurry, etc.).

Basically, the game uses hit chance to determine how many hits you get with these types of abilities. The easiest way to see this is with Triple Snap -- try using Triple Snap after the Flayer uses his Focus buff and the results should be impressive. The other way is to use a Murloc or Mr Wiggles for their +hit buff, then swap to a pet with Flurry or Quills or etc.

Wowdb lists the hit chance for Flurry as 50%. I'm pretty sure this is just for the 2nd hit--it should do 1 hit guaranteed, then has a 50% chance to get a 2nd hit, and then it should get a 3rd hit if you go first. This is the first dip--it's just the baseline randomness of Flurry. When you get 1 fewer hit with Flurry due to this, the UI will not pop up a 'miss' text--the hits simply appear to never have happened. The big issue here is that the 50% chance for Flurry to get its extra hit is modified by the pet's hit chance, which is not 100%.

The second dip is the hit chance determination that every ability is subject to, and that I'm sure everyone is used to. When Flurry misses due to this, the UI will pop up a 'miss' text. The end result is that multi-hit abilities are doubly impacted by the pet's miss rate, which is not 0% even for equal-level opponents.

On a related note, there are multiple abilities that have a 25% chance to add a debuff when they hit--Frog Kiss, Sleeping Gas, Deep Freeze, Moth Dust, etc. This proc rate is also modified by hit chance, which you can see pretty dramatically if you use Lucky Dance and then swap in a pet with Frog Kiss or similar ability.


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