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Help against annoying teams

Discuss pet battles, strategy and theorycrafting.
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Vek
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Help against annoying teams

Postby Vek » March 2nd, 2014, 10:03 am

In my battle group I often run into the same opponents, you get to know them even if they haven't named their pets. There are three teams I really don't like running into. Biggest problem is of course if I don't run very specific teams I find them very hard to counter, and you can bet your ass that if I think I have come up with some excellent counter I don't get that specific team. Often also I have some trouble even if I do run counter teams, they never feel as good as I would like. What are these nemesis teams of mine?

1. Creepy Crate, Garden Moth and Darkmoon Tonk.
Usually this guy starts with the crate and it often can kill my first pet, or leave it with very low health, while it also gets off one or two Bonestorm further weakening my back line pets. In comes the Tonk, Minefield, then it does Missile until it is sure an Ion Cannon can finish the second pet. This means third pet eats a minefield and faces a Moth. This is a very dangerous team in this players competent hands, he does not make very many mistakes if any at all, and is not above switching out the Tonk early for example.

2. Fiendish Imp, Magical Crawdad, Unborn Val'kyr.
He starts with the fast Imp, and can then nether gate if it is something he doesn't like. Else Immolation and a Burn or two. Then he switches the pet depending on what the opponent is. Unborn can do it's regular thing, Curse of Doom, Haunt, Shadow Slash/Shock. And the Crawdad got Shell and Wish, of course. I just find it very hard to deal with, or come up with a good counter. For example when I face a Crawdad I usually go to a bird or Qiraji Guardling, but both these pets will suffer against this team.

3. Mechanical Pandaren Dragonling, Moth(can't remember which), Unborn Val'kyr. The Dragonling is sufficiently annoying on it's own. Thunderbolt AoE, Decoy and Breath. Problem I have is if I try to counter the Moth the attacks will very likely be weak against the Dragonling. Aquatics against the Val'kyr will suffer against the Moth. The team just have good coverage while still have AoE and good defence.

Please help an old guy out here. :)

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Awq
 
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Re: Help against annoying teams

Postby Awq » March 2nd, 2014, 6:54 pm

What do you want our help with? You said that you will not often meet them as a counter. Do you still want specific advice to counter these teams?

Here are some general suggestions.

Moths & Direhorn are tough to give advice for. You either have a good advantage 75% of the time, or you will have a huge disadvantage (and most likely a dead pet). Mechanical pets, undeads, dragons do well against the moth

1. Thundertail Flapper possibly?

It has elemental attacks to damage the Tonk. It takes less damage from the tonk. It counters minefield with Beaver Dam. (swap in Beaver if he uses Tonk as second pet)
It can hurt the Moths multi attacks with Lightning Shield (or healing during cocoon strike, but this is less favorable)
Beaver Dam can soak Bonestorm and/or Curse of Doom.

2.
You must have burst! You must hit through the Crawdad and through the Imp! :)
He starts with the fast Imp, and can then nether gate if it is something he doesn't like.

Nether Gate is a double edged sword! Swaps through Nether Gate follow certain rules. You must learn who will be swapped in. I would recommend putting pets in an order which gives the most favorable outcome for your team.
I often swap in a soak pet, that results in my most favorable match up, when I am behind. It is a bit of a mind game.

You said that you used the Qiraji Guardling. You could start with Qiraji Guardling as opener against the Val'Kyr. Stun + Sandstorm will reduce the effectiveness of Haunt/Immolation. You can swap in another pet that now will be protected against Haunt.

3.
I have never encountered this team.
Last edited by Awq on March 2nd, 2014, 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Help against annoying teams

Postby Discodoggy » March 2nd, 2014, 8:01 pm

1. If you're not opposed to using a Sandstorm team you could use a Qiraji Guardling and Living Sandling combo to counter this team, with either an Ashstone Core or Jadefire Spirit as a third. Sandstorm will help mitigate the Bonestorm damage. The Living Sandling has Sand Bolt and Quicksand for the mech. The Jadefire Spirit can take Jade Claw for some anti-flyer and Emerald Presence for double shielding in Sandstorm. This team a good team in its own right. The Ashstone Core has Feedback for strong damage against the moth and also has double shielding.

Another idea I had was a bit more creative: Jadefire Spirit, Rat, Scourged Whelpling. Take Jade Claw, Immolation and Healing Flame. Take Scratch, Poison Fang and Survival on the Rat. Jade Claw is strong against the moth, Poison Fang and Immolation are strong against the mech. Hopefully you can bait the Ion Cannon on the turn you use Survival for some free turns. The two DoTs can get get Plagued Blood heals from the Whelpling. You can use the Jadefire Spirit to eat the weak Minefield and then heal up. I ran this team to see how it does and it went 5-3, so at least it's not horrible on its own.

2. Does the Magical Crawdad have Surge or Snap?

3. Whenever I'm facing a lot of mech dragons I bring a Fiendish Imp for the strong damage and to take out the decoy. Bring a Sen'Jin Fetish to cleanse the Haunt. As a third pet you could go with an H/H Scourged Whelpling to make this a solid DoT/Plagued Blood healing team. There's no hard counter to the moth but the hp of the undead dragon should be able to withstand the damage from the moth while Death and Decay and Immolation make it lose its racial. If you take Flame Breath and Wild Magic on the Sen'Jin Fetish it'll help with the DoTs. Someone can probably come up with a better third pet.

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Vek
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Re: Help against annoying teams

Postby Vek » March 3rd, 2014, 2:12 am

Thanks a lot for the replies. This is just what I was after, a new perspective and a little discussion. It just felt like I hit a wall. :)

Never considered Thundertail Flapper, I'll try it out. Thanks.

Living Sandling is probably a better option, though I love the Guardling it still suffer Bonestorm in the back even with sandstorm shield.

I'll definitely try the elementals out. Excellent advice.

2. Last time it had Snap.

3. Ill definitely try this. I had also used the Imp, but I guess he just outplayed me.

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Re: Help against annoying teams

Postby GilroyKilroy » March 3rd, 2014, 10:17 am

Every team has a counter team but unless you are guaranteed to run up against that team again it could be wasted.

I play about a dozen teams keeping track of which teams do better overall with wins vs loses (I rename each time with its net win count to do this.) Any team that loses too much is discarded. It keeps things interesting and from getting boring.

I also try to vary the team makeup but do have some pets that are members of multiple teams.

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Re: Help against annoying teams

Postby Poofah » March 3rd, 2014, 2:16 pm

DAH would be excellent against all of those teams, and excellent in general. Blind is a wonderful counter to Thunderbolt/Bonestorm/Nether Gate/Minefield, and Puncture Wound is a double-hit that eats both Decoy charges if they're poisoned. You would just need to protect him from the moths.

A lot of teams seem to be light on on-demand avoidance now--I think this has a lot to do with the pressure of having to deal with Valk, plus the futility of avoidance when you're always slower than DAH anyway. Those teams seem to follow that pattern--Decoy/Nether Gate/Cocoon Strike are efficient but not reliable at preventing a single key attack.

I ran into a Blizzard/stun team while playing one of my 'annoying' teams and got beaten badly enough that I shamelessly copied it. Rotten Helper was the lynchpin with Call Blizzard/Minefield, then Tiny Snowman (Call Blizzard/Deep Freeze), and another chill-dependent pet (Kun-Lai Runt, or maybe a penguin if you're worried about UD/elementals). Swapping out of Frost Shock is the usual defense against KLR/Deep Freeze, but that option goes away when you can open with Blizzard+Minefield. Without adequate avoidance, stuff like Bonestormers/Tonks/Valks have a terrible time against this team.

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Re: Help against annoying teams

Postby Mach1cane » March 4th, 2014, 12:13 pm

GilroyKilroy wrote:Every team has a counter team but unless you are guaranteed to run up against that team again it could be wasted.

I play about a dozen teams keeping track of which teams do better overall with wins vs loses (I rename each time with its net win count to do this.) Any team that loses too much is discarded. It keeps things interesting and from getting boring.

I also try to vary the team makeup but do have some pets that are members of multiple teams.



This is a fantastic idea. Thank you for posting it. I'll adopt this when I get home. :) Thanks again!!!
Sickened - MM (US - Horde)

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Re: Help against annoying teams

Postby 3wd » March 4th, 2014, 5:11 pm

Vek wrote: :)


When in doubts, always think undead pets first.

1. Creepy Crate, Garden Moth and Darkmoon Tonk.
So his tactic is simple, minefield and grab.
Fine, undead pet is your friend.
Lost of Lodaeron - good aoe against fly pet, COD put on the tank and let him switch. undead pet bug works against minefield (not sure if hotfixed), put in other high HP undead pet also such as spirit crab or a frosty.

2. Fiendish Imp, Magical Crawdad, Unborn Val'kyr.
His tactic is haunt and imo and backline heal, fine.
Use the elemental that drops in the thunder raid that can cast sandstorm and you will beat them up easily.


3. Mechanical Pandaren Dragonling, Moth(can't remember which), Unborn Val'kyr.
Fiendish Imp is your friend, frosty (or elemental such will do dot dmg or burning weather) is great.

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Re: Help against annoying teams

Postby Awq » March 4th, 2014, 5:15 pm

Poofah wrote:DAH would be excellent against all of those teams, and excellent in general. Blind is a wonderful counter to Thunderbolt/Bonestorm/Nether Gate/Minefield, and Puncture Wound is a double-hit that eats both Decoy charges if they're poisoned. You would just need to protect him from the moths.

A lot of teams seem to be light on on-demand avoidance now--I think this has a lot to do with the pressure of having to deal with Valk, plus the futility of avoidance when you're always slower than DAH anyway. Those teams seem to follow that pattern--Decoy/Nether Gate/Cocoon Strike are efficient but not reliable at preventing a single key attack.

I ran into a Blizzard/stun team while playing one of my 'annoying' teams and got beaten badly enough that I shamelessly copied it. Rotten Helper was the lynchpin with Call Blizzard/Minefield, then Tiny Snowman (Call Blizzard/Deep Freeze), and another chill-dependent pet (Kun-Lai Runt, or maybe a penguin if you're worried about UD/elementals). Swapping out of Frost Shock is the usual defense against KLR/Deep Freeze, but that option goes away when you can open with Blizzard+Minefield. Without adequate avoidance, stuff like Bonestormers/Tonks/Valks have a terrible time against this team.

It sounds like an interesting and strong team!
Team 2 might do decent. It seems able to eat the Minefields quite well!
Team 3 would also do reasonable well! Curse of doom + Haunt. Decoy. Switch in Moth. CoCoon Strike.
Last edited by Awq on March 4th, 2014, 5:59 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Help against annoying teams

Postby 3wd » March 4th, 2014, 5:16 pm

Poofah wrote:DAH would be excellent against all of those teams, and excellent in general. Blind is a wonderful counter to Thunderbolt/Bonestorm/Nether Gate/Minefield, and Puncture Wound is a double-hit that eats both Decoy charges if they're poisoned. You would just need to protect him from the moths.


Depends on the skill level of your opponent, DAH will still find lots of troubles against any mech pet, especially the one with minefield.

You have to guess correctly when they will use the minefield or AOE skills.

Take the mech dragon for example, yes you can guess if he will use the aoe first so you may want to blind him first, but he can also build the decoy.

And don't forget the blind bug which your opponent can still hit through it - still not fixed after the hotfix.

To counter a DAH, the robot with 325 P / 260 speed and missiles / -50% dmg shield / minefield is very effective.

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Re: Help against annoying teams

Postby Vek » March 4th, 2014, 5:38 pm

3wd wrote:1. Creepy Crate, Garden Moth and Darkmoon Tonk.
So his tactic is simple, minefield and grab.
Fine, undead pet is your friend.
Lost of Lodaeron - good aoe against fly pet, COD put on the tank and let him switch. undead pet bug works against minefield (not sure if hotfixed), put in other high HP undead pet also such as spirit crab or a frosty.


Ah, no he does not use Death Grip. Just bashes, sometimes CoD if it's a strong pet it's facing, away until the first pet is dead or the box is dead, while getting possible two Bonestorms to weaken my back line pets. After the crate has weakened my pets he does the Tonk, Minefield and missile until I'm within Ion Cannon range. Either my second pet is low enough for the moth to finish with ease, or my third pet eats a minefield. I'll try the Lost but it's attacks will be weak vs the tonk so have to make sure that is not happening.

3wd wrote:2. Fiendish Imp, Magical Crawdad, Unborn Val'kyr.
His tactic is haunt and imo and backline heal, fine.
Use the elemental that drops in the thunder raid that can cast sandstorm and you will beat them up easily.


I'll check it out. Thanks.

3wd wrote:3. Mechanical Pandaren Dragonling, Moth(can't remember which), Unborn Val'kyr.
Fiendish Imp is your friend, frosty (or elemental such will do dot dmg or burning weather) is great.


Yes imp is nice, but the switching about makes me hurt a lot since I don't want the imp to be tagged by the val'kyr. Sadly don't have Frosty. You sure the burning weather affects decoy, some stuff does not affect it.

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Re: Help against annoying teams

Postby 3wd » March 4th, 2014, 6:01 pm

or you can use the scourge whelps to lay a 9 round dots, it will work also.

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Re: Help against annoying teams

Postby Poofah » March 4th, 2014, 7:09 pm

Awq wrote:It sounds like an interesting and strong team!
Team 2 might do decent. It seems able to eat the Minefields quite well!
Team 3 would also do reasonable well! Curse of doom + Haunt. Decoy. Switch in Moth. CoCoon Strike.


Eating minefields is tough, even with high health pets. The team is set up to abuse non-avoidance pets as much as possible, and KO them before they can recover -- if Crawdad or Valk swaps into Minefield+Blizzard, they can easily take 1800 damage before being able to do anything (Minefield 750, Deep Freeze 450 + stun, 2x regular attacks 300 each).

Rotten Little Helper vs CoD/Haunt looks pretty terrible, but the Helper is not in the team to survive and trade blows, he's just there for setup. If you CoD/Haunt/Decoy/swap, then the helper will definitely die, but not fast enough to prevent Minefield+Blizzard. So Dragonling will eat a 750 minefield and lose its Decoy charges to an Ice Lance, and then the moth will end up facing KLR or Snowman with Blizzard up.

3wd wrote:DAH will still find lots of troubles against any mech pet, especially the one with minefield...

Take the mech dragon for example, yes you can guess if he will use the aoe first so you may want to blind him first, but he can also build the decoy...

To counter a DAH, the robot with 325 P / 260 speed and missiles / -50% dmg shield / minefield is very effective.


Mostly agree. Warbot is a nightmare for DAH, definitely. But Dragonling isn't, because it doesn't have a mech attack and it has fairly low power.

Minefield vs Blinding Poison is always a guessing game, but Blinding Poison has a big advantage in that it prevents both the initial placement of Minefield and also the explosion. So the Minefield user either has to guess, or wait until Blinding Poison is used up. And then they have to swap out, or else the DAH can Blind and immediately swap, and the minefield will miss the new pet.

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Re: Help against annoying teams

Postby Se5s » March 4th, 2014, 9:43 pm

DAH will beat the crate and imp, Xufu (1, 2, 2) will beat the Crawdad and moths (unless he gets sleeped on first round which technically means you will lose 1200-1500 of your teams over all hp, depending on crits.) Lil' Rag (1, 1, 2), whom you don't seem to have, is strong against mechanicals especially, as well as many other pets, including (despite the obvious) many aquatics when his trap goes off for 390 + stun and you smash them for 500 more damage...in one round? someone needs to get smacked for coming up with that lol. and they are stunned for the next round for another 500 damage. this team seems like it would be a great all around pvp team for your bgroup, and will eventually be countered by an emperor crab, probably a p/p breed. if this happens it will be to counter Lil' Rag, so u should replace him with a crow (2, 2, 2). for a while i was running Idol (2, 1, 2), Rag (1, 1, 2), Xufu (1, 2, 2) and i was doing extremely well until this last patch with the fix to demolish, which is now a completely useless ability.

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Re: Help against annoying teams

Postby Vek » March 7th, 2014, 8:29 am

Lava Crab made the first team flee after an Ion Cannon hit for 400. Good times.

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Re: Help against annoying teams

Postby 3wd » March 7th, 2014, 11:26 am

Poofah wrote:or else the DAH can Blind and immediately swap, and the minefield will miss the new pet.


be very careful on this, as I am not sure if it is a bug or an intended design.

say if a DAH will blind the warbot with mine already on the ground,

in next round, if the DAH swap out and the warbot will stay in the front, yes the minefield will miss.

However, if the warbot will also swap to the backrow, even with blind still on him that round, the minefield will still hit.

I tested the same on other delay damage such as ice tomb, it works the same.

round 1, DAH poison fang, frosty ice tomb
round 2, DAH blind poison, frosty normal attack miss.
round 3, DAH do whatever, frosty swap in new pet, going to backrow with blind on, end of the round, ice tomb will still hit.


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