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Anzu's Blessing

Discuss pet battles, strategy and theorycrafting.
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Liopleurodon
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Anzu's Blessing

Postby Liopleurodon » January 28th, 2014, 9:46 am

You might want to sit down before you see this.

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At least this made me a little weak in the knees.

There are a lot of factors, but this seems super OP for now. This is on the CE pet Dread Hatchling. It's in the pet journal on PTR if you want to go look yourself... the model is a placeholder, but the moves match what Jonathan LeCraft tweeted on Friday. If they add this (or something like it, with the 'Anzu' ref in the ability title) to other wilds, I think it'll be OK, but if not it seems kind of P2W. This ability is so, SO incredibly strong.

I'm thinking I might pair him with a Jade Oozeling. Maybe a Valk? Or maybe Chrominius and a Water Spirit (OH MY).
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Re: Anzu's Blessing

Postby Arshadi » January 28th, 2014, 10:02 am

Good lord. I can't quite imagine them going live with this unless they're also planning on nerfing some of the "explode" team type abilities - something I've been mildly paranoid about for awhile now. At first glance, using this to stack DOT or turret damage could be very nice, even with lost turns from swapping pets out.

I'll certainly play with it on the PTR when I can.
Last edited by Arshadi on January 29th, 2014, 10:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Kring
 
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Re: Anzu's Blessing

Postby Kring » January 28th, 2014, 10:23 am

Liopleurodon wrote:but if not it seems kind of P2W. This ability is so, SO incredibly strong.



It's not really new that they sell some of the most powerful pets for real money.

It's going to be ok. The little bird will dominate for some time and they will either nerf it or something else will counter it. Maybe breeding will make all pets more powerful.

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Liopleurodon
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Re: Anzu's Blessing

Postby Liopleurodon » January 28th, 2014, 10:34 am

You're right, but I don't have to like it! haha. I'm pretty sure this is going to see a nerf in duration at the minimum, but we'll see. I think a lot of this is a big question mark until beta opens up. I'm champing at the bit to see more of Garrisons & breeding. It could fix a lot of things, but it could just suck (or be inconsequential).

But for now, it's nice to drool over.
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Re: Anzu's Blessing

Postby Poofah » January 28th, 2014, 10:44 am

This is a much more balanced version of Righteous Inspiration, in fact it's so balanced that it's probably not any good. You pay 1 turn to buff your team damage by 25% for 5 turns (0.25 * 5 = 1.25). So if you can deal damage on each of those turns, you come out a little bit ahead. If you lose turns due to speed disadvantage, CC/avoidance, or the match ending, then you break even or fall behind. Hatchling has 337 power, so here's the damage he can do over 6 turns with his 2 different movesets:


Anzu's Blessing (0) + Peck (1.25*357) + Peck (1.25*357) + Peck (1.25*357) + Peck (1.25*357) + Peck (1.25*357) = 6.25*357 = 2230

Call Darkness (1.5*357) + Nocturnal Strike (2*357) + Peck (357) + Peck (357) + Peck (357) + Peck (357) = 7.5*357 = 2677


The fatal flaw with Anzu's Blessing is that it does no up-front damage. The Hatchling can't make good use of it himself, because he needs to deal damage before he loses the Flying passive, and Anzu's Blessing doesn't benefit him until much later. The upfront damage from Call Darkness/Nocturnal Strike is much more attractive. If the Hatchling wants to use Blessing and then swap to another pet, it's inferior to Righteous Inspiration in 2 critical ways. First, the swap isn't free, so you lose 2 full turns by Blessing + swapping. And the damage buff is spread out over 4 turns, so it's much less effective to combo it with a single long-cooldown nuke. Instead, it's the same total benefit but you need 4 turns to get it.

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Tuatha
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Re: Anzu's Blessing

Postby Tuatha » January 28th, 2014, 11:15 am

Poofah wrote:Anzu's Blessing (0) + Peck (1.25*357) + Peck (1.25*357) + Peck (1.25*357) + Peck (1.25*357) + Peck (1.25*357) = 6.25*357 = 2230

Call Darkness (1.5*357) + Nocturnal Strike (2*357) + Peck (357) + Peck (357) + Peck (357) + Peck (357) = 7.5*357 = 2677

Call Darkness should reduce Peck damage by 10% due to misses. Not huge, but worth factoring in.

And why no Call Darkness with Anzu's Blessing?

Anzu's Blessing (0) + Peck (1.25*357) + Peck (1.25*357) + Peck (1.25*357) + Peck (1.25*357) + Call Darkness (1.25*(357*1.5)) = 6.875*357 = 2454

Call Darkness (1.5*357) + Nocturnal Strike (2*357) + Peck (357*.9) + Peck (357*.9) + Peck (357*.9) + Peck (357*.9) = 7.1*357 = 2535

Quite a bit closer there, with the caveat that the next 5 attacks will have -10% hit for the Anzu's Blessing set (unless you swap to an elemental or something that benefits from Blindness).

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Re: Anzu's Blessing

Postby Luciandk » January 28th, 2014, 11:16 am

Yup, I have to echo Poofah here. Call Darkness and Nocturnal Strike simply brutally overshadows Anzu's Blessing with the burd's obscenely high 337 power.

It might have use in niche builds, but really you are wasting the potential of your pet if trying to use it. CD and NS is just that good together.

Edit: If you keep the burd in, trying to milk the Anzu's blessing, you are quickly going to loose the benefit from your flying buffed speed and effectively throwing your racial out of the window for small hits. Youd rather want to go blammo from the beginning with CD and NS, if enemy is near death finish it off with a peck or shadow slash. Elsewise swap out till your abilities comes off CD so you can go first again while still being fast.

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Re: Anzu's Blessing

Postby Liopleurodon » January 28th, 2014, 11:23 am

Nocturnal Strike & Anzu's Blessing share 3rd slot, to figuring in to calculations.

I think it may depend on how it's applied. Like if I can use a gnome to build a turret -> swap -> bless (DH is going to be faster most of the time at that point, because flying) and have it apply that buff retroactively, it'll be amazing. If it uses DoT snapshotting, I might stack say, a snake with 5 rounds of poison and a valk with Haunt and come out ahead. But if it only lasts for its duration and that's that, meh. There will definitely be niche uses for it in PVE though.
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Re: Anzu's Blessing

Postby Vek » January 28th, 2014, 11:30 am

I think you are missing that since its a team buff it will buff all existing dot's/cyclones/turrets etc. This can really hurt. At least thats how Rain Dance works.

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Re: Anzu's Blessing

Postby Poofah » January 28th, 2014, 12:06 pm

Tuatha wrote:Call Darkness should reduce Peck damage by 10% due to misses. Not huge, but worth factoring in.

And why no Call Darkness with Anzu's Blessing?


Valid points. I didn't factor in the -10% from Darkness because it's symmetrical and the opponent will have the same drawback; I skipped Darkness for no good reason in particular, except that I assumed a Anzu Blessing hatchling would prefer Consume Corpse to milk its buff/passive. As you point out though, the damage potential is still behind, and it's backloaded (a big deal for a flyer).

Liopleurodon wrote:If it uses DoT snapshotting, I might stack say, a snake with 5 rounds of poison and a valk with Haunt and come out ahead. But if it only lasts for its duration and that's that, meh. There will definitely be niche uses for it in PVE though.


Vek wrote:I think you are missing that since its a team buff it will buff all existing dot's/cyclones/turrets etc. This can really hurt. At least thats how Rain Dance works.


Absolutely true, but it costs turns to swap around and set up those DoTs/buffs. So the resulting damage has to be really impressive to be worthwhile. For example if you buff Haunt for the full Anzu's duration, that's only 0.25*750 = 188 extra damage. At some point the contortions you have to go through to make it work just aren't practical.

Rain Dance is incredible because it works so perfectly with Cyclone: Cyclone is normally 0.05*1.5*3*.35*7 + 0.95*3*.35*7 = 7.5 base damage per turn. Rain Dance buffs the hit chance to 0.85 and the crit chance to 1.3, so then it's 0.3*1.5*3*.85*7 + 0.7*3*.85*7 = 20.5 base damage per turn. That's a 275% buff per turn, over 3 turns. Anzu's Blessing is strictly %-based, so its effect is much more predictable, and much lower.

Also, Rain Dance has a 20 base heal attached, which adds a nice chunk of upfront value.

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Re: Anzu's Blessing

Postby Luciandk » January 28th, 2014, 1:20 pm

Which makes Anzu's blessing seem rather lackluster compared to the other option. Plus I feel you kinda gimp yourself by not taking advantage of your naturally high power.

But the CD/NS combo should make the Dread Hatchling a staple in the metagame to keep healers in check.

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Re: Anzu's Blessing

Postby 3wd » January 28th, 2014, 2:38 pm

Vek wrote:I think you are missing that since its a team buff it will buff all existing dot's/cyclones/turrets etc. This can really hurt. At least thats how Rain Dance works.


In theory yes.

But in reality you also need to consider these facts :

1. to better utilize this skill, the pet should only be switched in AFTER your other pets already lay down the dots or cyclones & or turrets, well, that means you need to do a switch, and this pet must prepare to take a free hit from your opponent.

2. now not only that, if you will use this skill for the buff, that means you will lose another round for a free hit by your opponent. Now remember this, this is a flying pet, that means they are usually very low in HP (mostly around 1400-1500 range), taken 2 free hit will get you very close to lose your racial.

3. Not only that, when you will use this buff, you basically will lose your big hit ability, unless you will use the call darkness for whatever reason, your go to attack will be your normal basic attack, even that with the 25% buff isn't really that much.

So 5 rounds looks very tempting on paper, but when you will lose 2 rounds for the free hit and getting really low on HP very fast, its just not that great in PVP.

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Re: Anzu's Blessing

Postby Poofah » January 28th, 2014, 2:48 pm

Luciandk wrote:But the CD/NS combo should make the Dread Hatchling a staple in the metagame to keep healers in check.


I agree, but Crow/Raven is already a staple, and making a higher-power Crow/Raven is not exactly pushing the envelope. It's exactly what you don't want in a hard-to-get pet: boring, but highly effective. It's unsatisfying to play with, but it's also a big advantage in PvP. CEs are supposed to give fun bonuses, not power bonuses, so I see the current hatchling as kind of a failure on both fronts.

Frosty/Netherwhelp/Mini-Diablo are 'good' CE pets, imo, because they have unique moves/movesets but are not overwhelmingly strong.

Mini-Thor is a 'bad' CE pet, because it's just a carbon copy of Warbot, except it has better stats.

Murkalot is great from a design perspective because he's got multiple interesting unique abilities; it's just a bit overtuned from a balance perspective.

Anyway, I hope they iterate on Anzu's Blessing and/or rethink this guy's moveset. As it is, people are going to autopilot 2-3-1 and KO opponents while having 360+ speed. Neither player is going to have fun with that for very long.

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Re: Anzu's Blessing

Postby 3wd » January 28th, 2014, 2:52 pm

Now we will dig deeper, what about this to team up with a valk?

Lets say the valk will haunt first, then next round this pet will be up and use the buff?

Haunt is a 5 rounds dot.

The first round will do 156 dmg (no buff)

2nd round 156X1.25 = 195 dmg (39 extra)
3rd round (lets assume will use the 90% hit skill for an average of 350 dmg) 437 dmg (87 dmg) + 195 dmg
4th round need to use consume here otherwise could die next round, lets assume get back to round 1000HP level. 195 dmg
5th round normal attack 437 dmg, assume this hit will kill your opponent.

so 5 rounds and can do dmg for 156 + 195 +437 + 195 + 195 + 437 = around 1615

That means : on paper, if you use this combo with the valk's haunt.

You can kill your opponent in a 5 round rotation with the condition of :

1. your opponent's HP is not above 1650.
2. they are not undead.
3. they do not have any evasion or dodge nor they have any delay damage.
4. they will only trade normal damage with you.
5. then you will be able to kill your opponent's first pet with your valk probably taking one hit and your bird still have around 1000 HP.

If you will compare this to the valk/snake/Qiraji guardling combo rotation, I don't see any reason why this skill is more superior.

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Re: Anzu's Blessing

Postby 3wd » January 28th, 2014, 3:07 pm

Luciandk wrote:Yup, I have to echo Poofah here. Call Darkness and Nocturnal Strike simply brutally overshadows Anzu's Blessing with the burd's obscenely high 337 power.



Well, if this pet will have a 337 power, then its almost for sure is just another glass cannon, and may even worse than the lil rag.

Lil rag still got 2 interesting skill with sons of the flame and the trap, and most people will use these skills rather than the straight up dmg.

it doesn't matter how much damage this combo : Call Darkness and Nocturnal Strike will do, you still need 4 rounds to face any undead pets and at least 3 hits to kill them (reaching racial). 3 rounds of normal attack will remove the racial of this flying pet and he will most likely be dead with 4 rounds of normal attack.

Doesn't seem that great of a pet.

I rather see a more balanced breed.

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Re: Anzu's Blessing

Postby Luciandk » January 28th, 2014, 3:31 pm

It comes with 1420 hp, so its not super fragile. Fast and packing a wallop, thats whats making it great. Gilnean ravens and crows was already popular. This is a super version.

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Re: Anzu's Blessing

Postby Skavenged » January 31st, 2014, 1:40 pm

Actually, another way to make this a big hitter is to pair it with a Valk and Chi-chi. Valk haunts, Chi-chi comes in and tacks on his damage buff. Next round, Chi-chi feigns death. Now you get to bring this bird in untouched, add 25% damage to the haunt that is already ticking at 230 per round, and when haunt ends, you switch right back to the Valk and haunt again

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Re: Anzu's Blessing

Postby Ravnhawk » January 31st, 2014, 2:12 pm

Wow Skavanged that didn't even occur to me. Chi-ji gives the free swap. The truth is even if this pet sucked at pet battles. He's SOOOO cute looking (as cute as Ji-kun Hatchling in my book LOL) I'm most likely going to have him out a lot. I've been trying off and on for the Raven lord mount for 6 or 7 years. That mount simply won't drop for me, so the new mount and pet will give me a small bit of solace (6 toons daily then I got bored)

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Re: Anzu's Blessing

Postby Badpathing » January 31st, 2014, 9:34 pm

Poofah wrote:This is a much more balanced version of Righteous Inspiration, in fact it's so balanced that it's probably not any good. You pay 1 turn to buff your team damage by 25% for 5 turns (0.25 * 5 = 1.25). So if you can deal damage on each of those turns, you come out a little bit ahead. If you lose turns due to speed disadvantage, CC/avoidance, or the match ending, then you break even or fall behind. Hatchling has 337 power, so here's the damage he can do over 6 turns with his 2 different movesets:


Anzu's Blessing (0) + Peck (1.25*357) + Peck (1.25*357) + Peck (1.25*357) + Peck (1.25*357) + Peck (1.25*357) = 6.25*357 = 2230

Call Darkness (1.5*357) + Nocturnal Strike (2*357) + Peck (357) + Peck (357) + Peck (357) + Peck (357) = 7.5*357 = 2677


The fatal flaw with Anzu's Blessing is that it does no up-front damage. The Hatchling can't make good use of it himself, because he needs to deal damage before he loses the Flying passive, and Anzu's Blessing doesn't benefit him until much later. The upfront damage from Call Darkness/Nocturnal Strike is much more attractive. If the Hatchling wants to use Blessing and then swap to another pet, it's inferior to Righteous Inspiration in 2 critical ways. First, the swap isn't free, so you lose 2 full turns by Blessing + swapping. And the damage buff is spread out over 4 turns, so it's much less effective to combo it with a single long-cooldown nuke. Instead, it's the same total benefit but you need 4 turns to get it.


I feel like you are leaving out the fact that despite the setbacks, the duration enables 1 or 2 possible moves that may have extreme consequences.

Blessing + Righteous Inspiration (is it additive or multiplicative?) + Bonestorm. That's going to be a heavy hit, and it spreads across the whole opponent's team. Also, your math shows the numbers per turn, but what it is not pointing out is that sometimes, the amount of damage you can do in a single hit matters more than the damage you can do over 3 turns. This is a way to tweak that.
Last edited by Badpathing on January 31st, 2014, 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anzu's Blessing

Postby Badpathing » January 31st, 2014, 9:36 pm

3wd wrote:If you will compare this to the valk/snake/Qiraji guardling combo rotation, I don't see any reason why this skill is more superior.


Ever the self-promoter it seems.
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