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Explode and Celestial pets question

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Luciandk
 
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Explode and Celestial pets question

Postby Luciandk » October 11th, 2013, 7:36 pm

One thing im currently wondering about: Supposedly the celestials cant take more than 35% of their life in damage per hit. But does it count for Explode too? Explode already deals untyped damage, ignoring their innate 50% damage reduction.

But consider a scenario like this:

Singing Sunflower, 2x HH Blackfuse Bomblings

Explode deals 722 damage, which is increased to 1083 damage with Sunlight up. Which would be 2166 damage from 2 consecutive explodes. Which leaves 43hp left on a 2209hp celestial. Which the Sunflower is more than capable of blowing off with a single cast of Solar Beam.


Edit: Hrm, from testing on Lil Oondasta I discovered something I forgot to take into account. Namely that the bosspet max hp is increased as well. Which appears to be where the 35% max damage thing is drawn from. So a 2209 boss pet would become about 3313 max hp and not even triggering the defensive ability.

Sunlight+Explode did the full expected 1083 damage to Lil Oondasta, whom shares the 35% ability with the celestials.
Last edited by Luciandk on October 11th, 2013, 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Explode and Celestial pets question

Postby Maizing » October 11th, 2013, 8:01 pm

Oh yeah. In sunlight, the max hp goes up. For example: I have noticed that if a mechanical pet dies and triggers the racial when sunlight is up, it comes back with more hp than it normally would. The same affect of sunlight would naturally apply to boss pets too... and beware of their heals (especially Zao's) under the affects of sunlight.

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Re: Explode and Celestial pets question

Postby Luciandk » October 11th, 2013, 8:04 pm

Maizing wrote:Oh yeah. In sunlight, the max hp goes up. For example: I have noticed that if a mechanical pet dies and triggers the racial when sunlight is up, it comes back with more hp than it normally would. The same affect of sunlight would naturally apply to boss pets too... and beware of their heals (especially Zao's) under the affects of sunlight.


But as im thinking, you should be able to destroy Zao before he gets Wish off with this setup.

Clockwork Gnome and 2x Zandalari Kneebiter Raptors is already capable of it.

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Re: Explode and Celestial pets question

Postby Maizing » October 11th, 2013, 8:22 pm

Luciandk wrote:
Maizing wrote:Oh yeah. In sunlight, the max hp goes up. For example: I have noticed that if a mechanical pet dies and triggers the racial when sunlight is up, it comes back with more hp than it normally would. The same affect of sunlight would naturally apply to boss pets too... and beware of their heals (especially Zao's) under the affects of sunlight.


But as im thinking, you should be able to destroy Zao before he gets Wish off with this setup.

Clockwork Gnome and 2x Zandalari Kneebiter Raptors is already capable of it.

Try it, I would be interested in your results. It would certainly add another good team to the list if it works.

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Re: Explode and Celestial pets question

Postby Luciandk » October 11th, 2013, 8:26 pm

Maizing wrote:
Luciandk wrote:
Maizing wrote:Oh yeah. In sunlight, the max hp goes up. For example: I have noticed that if a mechanical pet dies and triggers the racial when sunlight is up, it comes back with more hp than it normally would. The same affect of sunlight would naturally apply to boss pets too... and beware of their heals (especially Zao's) under the affects of sunlight.


But as im thinking, you should be able to destroy Zao before he gets Wish off with this setup.

Clockwork Gnome and 2x Zandalari Kneebiter Raptors is already capable of it.

Try it, I would be interested in your results. It would certainly add another good team to the list if it works.


Have to wait till next week for that.

Edit: Hrm, I wonder..

Pet Bombling could potentially make an useful replacement for a Blackfuse on Zao. If you switch right after Sunflower opens with Sunlight, the next bombling is going to eat a Niuzao's charge. But if using a Pet Bombling, it will have more speed than Zao and able to go next with Explode on the comming turn without eating another hit. The difference in using a Pet Bombling and a Blackfuse Bombling, is that Zao should have 150hp left now after both are blown. which a solar beam is capable of blowing even with half damage done.

Hrm, lets see what it looks like if going with 2 Pet Bomblings and no Blackfuse.
A pet bombling buffed by Sunlight provides a 976 explode. Which is 1952 damage over 2 Explodes from pet bomblings and leaving 257 hp on a celestial. Which a single solar beam is still able to take out. Unfortunately a Singing Sunflower is fairly slow and will never outspeed a Celestial.

Edit 2: Waitamoment..

Forgot the damage from Sunlight itself. A Soul of the Aspect appears to be the Sunlight using pet with the highest power. Having a 160 damage Sunlight, which would be 80 damage to a Celestial.

Add 2x Blackfuses each doing 1083 damage and you have a total of 2246 damage done, exceeding the health of Zao and Xu-Fu.

Edit 3: An easier option for the Sunlighter is Terrible Turnip, slightly lower power, but still within the kill range.
Last edited by Luciandk on October 11th, 2013, 9:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Explode and Celestial pets question

Postby Rendigar » October 11th, 2013, 8:51 pm

Several people have posted the standard explode team works against some of the Celestials. The only question is can you do it with anything below the high-end H/H Minfernal / Netherspace Abyssal pair. I have a couple of explode teams (incl. the H/H pair) and will try and test it when I get around to this week's tourney.

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Re: Explode and Celestial pets question

Postby Luciandk » October 12th, 2013, 4:26 pm

Been trying my hand on beasts of fable with my explode team.
Singing Sunflower
Pet Bombling
Blackfuse Bombling HH

BoF 1:
All was easy to destroy

BoF 2:
Kafi I had to do an extra time due to an unlucky stun proc.
Lucky Yi can easilly be defeated by spamming Photosynthesis until they cast their heal, then using Sunlight and swapping to the bomblings.
Dos-Ryga is a bit more tricky due to randomly possible casts of whirlpool in the beginning before healing wave. And may require a few more restarts as you want healing wave on cd before casting Sunlight. But still quite doable.

Bof 3:
All was easy to destroy.

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Re: Explode and Celestial pets question

Postby Papazol » October 13th, 2013, 8:58 am

Why so hard? Teams with explode*2 + something else are my favorite ;). But I realy dont like to use pets with sunlight, cose you need to swap pets and lose round. For example for Zao I use darkmoon zep + pet bombing. After 1st heal I have 5 rounds to get it, so I explode zeppelin (I'm starting from him), explode pet bombing, and my 3d pet - darkmoon tonk finishes Zao with rockets and/or ion cannon. This is no place for luck or chance, I win it every week (including 2 weeks on ptr) even if some rockets misses. Now, back to sunlight. It is possible what you dont kill Zao with 2 explosions and need to back on pet with sunlight. Interesting thing - from all 6 pets, what can cast sunlight, only Sunfur panda is faster than Zao, and Venus has same speed. Zao with beast rasial can just 1 shot any from this pets before they will able to finish his 100 hp.
I tried sunlight+explosion on BoF some time ago and desided that risk is to high for my plaing stile. Hope, your reports about sunlight against Celestials will be more positive.

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Re: Explode and Celestial pets question

Postby Rendigar » October 13th, 2013, 12:55 pm

Luciandk wrote:Been trying my hand on beasts of fable with my explode team.

You pretty much are dead on with this and that is why the explode teams are not recommended against all of the beasts of fable in the guide for 5.4. I think the main reason to avoid JUST using an explode team is to reduce the number of healing stops on the way. But if you don't mind resetting, healing, and trying again it can work - but other teams work better with little to no risk of losing (Raptors vs Lucky Yi, for example).

Unfortunately I forgot to test my lesser explode team when I did the tourney this week, so I am not sure how the non-H/H pair (I'd use a Zep & Pet Bombling) would do.

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Re: Explode and Celestial pets question

Postby Luciandk » October 13th, 2013, 1:52 pm

Rendigar wrote:
Luciandk wrote:Been trying my hand on beasts of fable with my explode team.

You pretty much are dead on with this and that is why the explode teams are not recommended against all of the beasts of fable in the guide for 5.4. I think the main reason to avoid JUST using an explode team is to reduce the number of healing stops on the way. But if you don't mind resetting, healing, and trying again it can work - but other teams work better with little to no risk of losing (Raptors vs Lucky Yi, for example).

Unfortunately I forgot to test my lesser explode team when I did the tourney this week, so I am not sure how the non-H/H pair (I'd use a Zep & Pet Bombling) would do.


I beg to differ, if you have LOTS of bandages like me, an explode team is an easy way to quickly power through all the beasts of fable with. And as I said its only Dos-Ryga that can slightly upset an explode team, and its still quite doable.
Bof1 and Bof3 I 1shotted with the explode team. Only the healers in bof2 that took a little longer, as well being stunned by kafi.

But I mainly foresee that an Explode team will be useful against Xu-Fu in particular, Zao might have a bit too much health for it.

Ive over 300 bandages currently, they just keep piling up!

Edit: If Murkalot's Righteous Inspiration works on Explode, then it should make it even more useful and shave 1 turn from the combo.

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Re: Explode and Celestial pets question

Postby Rendigar » October 14th, 2013, 7:25 am

Luciandk wrote:I beg to differ, if you have LOTS of bandages like me, an explode team is an easy way to quickly power through all the beasts of fable with. And as I said its only Dos-Ryga that can slightly upset an explode team, and its still quite doable.
Bof1 and Bof3 I 1shotted with the explode team. Only the healers in bof2 that took a little longer, as well being stunned by kafi.

But I mainly foresee that an Explode team will be useful against Xu-Fu in particular, Zao might have a bit too much health for it.

Ive over 300 bandages currently, they just keep piling up!
My thoughts:
a) I do have lots of bandages but I do not like wasting anything (I am too much of a packrat) plus I don't like resetting, I'd rather just win 100% of the time and move on - as I am doing the BoF along with the Tamers.
b) Raptor team eats Lucky Yi in 3-4 turns - and if something goes horribly wrong, the 2nd raptor will finish him off, no need to reset like with the explode team.
c) Raptor team also kills Ka'wi in 4-5, and Ka'wi can screw your explode team if he opens with his Super Sticky Goo - turning your win into a possible loss by then killing your light-bringer, and as with Lucky Yi, no need to reset if the raptors don't finish the job.
d) Burst team 2 kills Dos-Ryga in 4-6 turns 100% of the time with Geyser, Whirlpool, switch, Howl, Surge (or Ion Cannon if Chrominius gets killed before his Surge turn). I've only needed Ion Cannon once in the last few weeks.
e) Kafi and his stun can just be annoying - the Burst Team works best, delaying Unholy Ascension until after he uses Headbutt.

Luciandk wrote:Edit: If Murkalot's Righteous Inspiration works on Explode, then it should make it even more useful and shave 1 turn from the combo.
As for Murkalot - righteous inspiration granting a free swap plus doubling the 1st explode (and making it 1st with the speed buff) definitely looks like it will be slick - just make sure that your biggest exploder is 1st. Because your 2nd exploder will be doing the base explode damage, instead of getting the 50% boost from Sunny Day. And, because it's a BlizzCon only pet, most players will not have it - but you know I'll be using it personally. :D

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Re: Explode and Celestial pets question

Postby Luciandk » October 14th, 2013, 7:33 am

I have no problems with Kawi. Open with Sunlight and spam photosynthesis until Sticky Goo wears off, allowing swapping.

For Murkalot, I was thinking a sploder team like this:

Sunflower
Murkalot
Blackfuse

Instead of having two bomblings, Murkalot effectively concentrates the power of two sunlight buffed bomblings in one bombling, and making it much harder to evade due to buffing explode's speed too. Plus the tactic leaves you with two pets, versus only having one pet left if going with two bomblings.

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Re: Explode and Celestial pets question

Postby Rendigar » October 14th, 2013, 6:26 pm

Luciandk wrote:I have no problems with Kawi. Open with Sunlight and spam photosynthesis until Sticky Goo wears off, allowing swapping.
That sort of defies the "fast win" strat, but it works for you. :)

Luciandk wrote:Instead of having two bomblings, Murkalot effectively concentrates the power of two sunlight buffed bomblings in one bombling, and making it much harder to evade due to buffing explode's speed too. Plus the tactic leaves you with two pets, versus only having one pet left if going with two bomblings.
Yeah, I can see how that would work well, though it would only work for cetain with the Blackfuse or H/H Minfernal/Abyssal. The lesser ones don't explode for enough (even doubled) against Ti'un - and if he primes pump before Murkalot comes out he might be able to blow you away if you come back out after the explode. Of course you have a Blackfuse (H/H?) so you aren't going to have a problem.

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Re: Explode and Celestial pets question

Postby Luciandk » October 14th, 2013, 6:39 pm

My intention was to try for lulz, a team that could beat every single BoF bosspet and it did. And yes, I have a H/H Blackfuse Bombling, the highest hp exploder out there.

Yes, I know well how powerful the raptors is, but they get hosed by Tiun due to his shield. In 1.22 hours from writting this, the weekly tournament quest resets for EU. If you do it before 4am, it resets an additional time. Where I intend to try out the exploders on Xu-Fu.

Edit: Grump! Of course my internet goes down so that I loose crucial time for the tournament, I 1shot it, but I was done at 4.05 am, due to the net not returning before 3.39 am :(

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Re: Explode and Celestial pets question

Postby Luciandk » October 22nd, 2013, 2:35 am

Finally got to test a sunlight buffed Explode on a celestial. Boss 35% max damage reduction kicks in.

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Re: Explode and Celestial pets question

Postby Sanzul » October 22nd, 2013, 3:20 am

Luciandk wrote:I have no problems with Kawi. Open with Sunlight and spam photosynthesis until Sticky Goo wears off, allowing swapping.

That ruins the whole speed element, though. A decent fox or wolf can usually kill Kawi in 3-4 rounds. And since you can bring a team of three foxes, you can't really lose.

Luciandk wrote:Finally got to test a sunlight buffed Explode on a celestial. Boss 35% max damage reduction kicks in.

If Sunlight works on the celestial too, 35% of their buffed health is still more than 50% of their original health.

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Re: Explode and Celestial pets question

Postby Luciandk » October 22nd, 2013, 3:32 am

Sanzul wrote:
Luciandk wrote:I have no problems with Kawi. Open with Sunlight and spam photosynthesis until Sticky Goo wears off, allowing swapping.

That ruins the whole speed element, though. A decent fox or wolf can usually kill Kawi in 3-4 rounds. And since you can bring a team of three foxes, you can't really lose.

Luciandk wrote:Finally got to test a sunlight buffed Explode on a celestial. Boss 35% max damage reduction kicks in.

If Sunlight works on the celestial too, 35% of their buffed health is still more than 50% of their original health.


Well, the whole intention was to test if a sufficiently highly damaging Explode would ignore that protection, like with their 50% damage reduction.

Edit: I hazard a guess that blizzard added the 35% rule to the celestials because of explode. as no other move comes close enough in damage thanks to their innate 50% damage reduction which Explode ignores.

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Re: Explode and Celestial pets question

Postby Kpb321 » October 22nd, 2013, 11:02 am

Luciandk wrote:
Sanzul wrote:
Luciandk wrote:I have no problems with Kawi. Open with Sunlight and spam photosynthesis until Sticky Goo wears off, allowing swapping.

That ruins the whole speed element, though. A decent fox or wolf can usually kill Kawi in 3-4 rounds. And since you can bring a team of three foxes, you can't really lose.

Luciandk wrote:Finally got to test a sunlight buffed Explode on a celestial. Boss 35% max damage reduction kicks in.

If Sunlight works on the celestial too, 35% of their buffed health is still more than 50% of their original health.


Well, the whole intention was to test if a sufficiently highly damaging Explode would ignore that protection, like with their 50% damage reduction.

Edit: I hazard a guess that blizzard added the 35% rule to the celestials because of explode. as no other move comes close enough in damage thanks to their innate 50% damage reduction which Explode ignores.


I hit it all the time one them once I've applied 100% dmg increasing debuff especially with something like Shock and Awe or Ion Cannon on a beast.

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Re: Explode and Celestial pets question

Postby Wakka » October 30th, 2013, 2:47 pm

Whether or not they bypass the 35% damage isn't a big deal as explode teams still work great on the Celestials. I use a lantern, H/H netherspace abyssal and H/H minfernal on Zao and kill him on the turn wish is set to go off.

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Re: Explode and Celestial pets question

Postby Luciandk » October 30th, 2013, 3:13 pm

Wakka wrote:Whether or not they bypass the 35% damage isn't a big deal as explode teams still work great on the Celestials. I use a lantern, H/H netherspace abyssal and H/H minfernal on Zao and kill him on the turn wish is set to go off.


In smaller doses, yes, the question was if one big explode was allowed to kill em. Which was my question earlier, given the other unusual behavior of the skill, but its not I know now.


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