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Benefits of having a Breed 5/15 pet?

Discuss pet battles, strategy and theorycrafting.
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Notamonk
 
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Benefits of having a Breed 5/15 pet?

Postby Notamonk » January 10th, 2013, 3:50 pm

Are the only reasons to have a breed 5/15 pet to be able to use your abilities first? Like I know one of the more popular uses or needs for this breed type is to be able to use dodge/immunity mechanics first. But is that it?

I know of a couple of other abilities that guarantee an extra hit if the user goes first, but would it really be worth missing out on all of the extra attack from a breed 4/14 pet or even a 8/18 pet to be able to go first?

I feel like these is something I'm missing but would just like to clarify and see if anyone else knows!


Thanks.



Also,


What is your favorite breedid type? Personally I prefer 8/18 just because I enjoy having the extra little bit of speed and power! :)

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Zaelo
 
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Re: Benefits of having a Breed 5/15 pet?

Postby Zaelo » January 10th, 2013, 4:31 pm

It all depends on each pet, specifically...
And which breeds or available for each pet too...

My fastest pet is, I believe, my fluxfire feline, and I wouldn't trade his speed for power even at 2 for 1. He doesn't need power, he already one shots any pet he encounters, and the extra speed guarantees he'll do so before the other pet attacks on the round he hits.

But that's just one example amongst so many, like I said, it depends on the pet..

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Poofah
 
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Re: Benefits of having a Breed 5/15 pet?

Postby Poofah » January 10th, 2013, 6:21 pm

Yes, the only benefit is going first. But like Zaelo says, the value of going first depends a lot on the particular pet.

Buffs and debuffs that say 'lasts X rounds' actually last for the rest of the current round, plus X rounds. So if you go first, your buff/debuff will be active for the opponent's action on that turn. This is very valuable for buffs like Dodge--you get to dodge 2 turns of attacks instead of 1. In addition, you get to use Dodge more opportunistically. If you're slower, then your opponent will see the dodge buff on you and can act accordingly; if you're faster, then they have to choose their action before they know if you'll have the dodge buff. This is why the breed 5 fluxfire is so much better than the breed 8: his 3 turn combo will kill just about anything, IF it hits them. By going first, the fluxfire always knows whether it will hit (barring random miss/dodge), and can choose to pass if the opponent has a dodge buff up.

And also, like Zaelo pointed out -- if you go first and kill the opponent, then the opponent doesn't get to hit you back. So in this case, going first was almost like getting a Dodge buff for one extra turn.

In the case of abilities that get an extra hit if you're faster, you can directly calculate the value of going first in terms of power. For example Flurry: "Rapidly strikes at the enemy 1-2 times, dealing 10 Critter damage per hit. Attacks an additional time if the user attacks first." For a breed 5 rabbit (228 power, 358 speed), each hit is (10/20)*(20+228) = 124 damage; if you go first, you get 2.5 hits on average, for 310 damage. If you were slower, you'd probably pick Scratch instead, which would deal 248 damage. If you wanted Scratch to deal 310 damage, you'd need 62 extra power; so going first was worth 62 extra power for this rabbit, just for the purposes of Flurry's damage output.

For reference, the difference between a breed 4 and a breed 5 of a particular pet is 65 power.

Going first is pretty darn good. The big problem with speed is that it's all-or-nothing: every point of speed above the number needed to go first is completely wasted, and you don't know what that number is until you see your opponent. And if you invest in speed but end up going 2nd anyway, you're at a big disadvantage (much more so than if you had invested in power, because power is always good).

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Winterfell
 
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Re: Benefits of having a Breed 5/15 pet?

Postby Winterfell » January 11th, 2013, 3:59 am

Another big problem with speed is that it's countered by the vast array of abilities that have a speed buff/debuff (and by the irritating Tail Sweep... it's better not to match a high speed pet against Aki's serpent).

That said, strategies based on speed (if not countered) can indeed be extremely effective. A rabbit, for instance, has three abilities which directly benefit from having a higher speed (Flurry, Dodge and Burrow), as has an Otter (Gnaw, Survival, Dive). A moth has two (Alpha Strike and Cocoon) and is a flier to boot! A high speed score can make these pets very powerful.

Strategies based on speed can also be based on a speed buff rather than a speed score, though. I'm partial to Howl, Leap (+100% speed buff) and Flurry, for instance, for a low speed high power canine pet, (now if only Howl had a 2 round CD rather than a 3 one...).

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Re: Benefits of having a Breed 5/15 pet?

Postby Stabya » January 11th, 2013, 10:00 am

Not all Breed 5 Pets are created Equal.

If you compare a breed 5 Leopard Tree Frog to a Breed 5 Rapana Whelk, there is quite a difference.

In Short, if a Breed 5 Rapana Whelk is going to lose initiative to most other Breed 5 pets, then you are better off having a different breed.

Health and Power are what they are. Every attack and Defense is benefitted by the additional Health and Damage Modifiers

Pure Speed and nothing else needs to go first in a matchup or you can consider the pet to have no Bonus stats at all

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Notamonk
 
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Re: Benefits of having a Breed 5/15 pet?

Postby Notamonk » January 11th, 2013, 12:10 pm

Ahh very helpful stuff guys thanks! :D

What kind of teams are you guys running that are based upon having faster pets?

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Poofah
 
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Re: Benefits of having a Breed 5/15 pet?

Postby Poofah » January 11th, 2013, 3:15 pm

Any time you want to use CC or avoidance or disruption, speed is especially good. Here's some silly teams:

Scalded Basilisk Hatchling x2, plus one pet of your choice: the Basilisks have 305 speed and you pick Crystal Prison, Feign Death, and Thrash (or Screech, it doesn't matter). As long as you go first, you can do Crystal Prison, Thrash (opponent is still stunned at this point), Feign Death to get the other Basilisk, Crystal Prison, Thrash, repeat ad infinitum.

Tiny Snowman x2, plus one pet of your choice: Tiny Snowman has both Call Blizzard and Deep Freeze, so you can do Call Blizzard, Deep Freeze, swap, Deep Freeze, swap, Deep Freeze, swap, etc., etc. As long as you get the first action, the opponent is always stunned during their action phase, except on the turns you have to refresh the Blizzard. Tiny Snowman has 276 speed (after you rare-stone him),

The extra pet in both cases could be a pet with Dazzling Dance, to get your speed up even higher.

Building your whole team based on going first is a bit risky though, so usually I just pick pets who are individually strong--the pets that really benefit from being speedy are the ones with CC (Flayer Youngling, Leopard Tree Frog) or avoidance (Rabbits, anything with Dodge/Evanescence), or the ones that really can't afford to have the opponent dodge them (Fluxfire Feline).

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Zaelo
 
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Re: Benefits of having a Breed 5/15 pet?

Postby Zaelo » January 11th, 2013, 3:23 pm

Poofah wrote:Scalded Basilisk Hatchling x2, plus one pet of your choice: the Basilisks have 305 speed and you pick Crystal Prison, Feign Death, and Thrash (or Screech, it doesn't matter). As long as you go first, you can do Crystal Prison, Thrash (opponent is still stunned at this point), Feign Death to get the other Basilisk, Crystal Prison, Thrash, repeat ad infinitum.


Oooh I like that!! :D

For your second "silly team" though, the one with the tiny snowman, I suggest going with this instead:
Tiny Snowman + 2 Kun-Lai Runt.
The Snowman keeps Blizzard up for Deep Freeze, which the Kun-Lai Runts have as well, but the Runts also have Takedown, that deals double damage against stunned targets.
So you can either alternate between your three pets to keep Deep Freeze up all the time and keep the other team stunned all the time, or if your opponent doesn't swap pets on stuns you can use Takedown to deal very high damage and maybe kill the enemy pet right there (after 1 deepfreeze + 1 takedown).. if not he'll be close to dead for sure.
The Runts have max 273 speed though, which is very slightly slower than the Snowman, but this strat works VERY well in PVP... maybe too well.

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Poofah
 
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Re: Benefits of having a Breed 5/15 pet?

Postby Poofah » January 11th, 2013, 4:27 pm

Zaelo wrote:The Runts have max 273 speed though, which is very slightly slower than the Snowman, but this strat works VERY well in PVP... maybe too well.


I agree with the 'too well.' I think it's ok to get punished if you bring pets that are too slow, but getting stunlocked for the entire match is a bit much.

Changing the 2nd snowman for a fast Runt is a good way to go too, he speeds things up so you have less chance to get a bad RNG miss/dodge, and beats up rabbits that give the snowman problems. 2x snowman makes you a little more resilient against weather changers (or weather-immune), and in a world with fluxfire feline it's nice to be an elemental.

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Zaelo
 
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Re: Benefits of having a Breed 5/15 pet?

Postby Zaelo » January 11th, 2013, 4:39 pm

Hehehe good point.
I'm seeing a lot of PVPers with pets specifically there to take down elementals though (Snails or the Crawdad with Surge), as Elementals are very popular in PVP teams. And strangely I don't see the Fluxfire Feline nearly as much as I should.
Plus I like to be able to use Deep Freeze and Takedown every 3 rounds, but I totally see the use for a 2nd Snowman, to make sure Blizzard stays up!

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Ril
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Re: Benefits of having a Breed 5/15 pet?

Postby Ril » January 15th, 2013, 2:33 am

i've caught a breed 4 flayer youngling. after reading this thread i somehow got the impression that 5 is actually better in this case because of triple snap and reflection. am i right to go back and get a 5 instead?

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Poofah
 
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Re: Benefits of having a Breed 5/15 pet?

Postby Poofah » January 15th, 2013, 2:52 am

That depends on what you want to use him for. Speed won't affect Triple Snap, but it does affect Blitz, and Kick is only useful if you're faster. So for a Blitz/Reflection/Kick setup, speed is the best for sure--this is very strong against a lot of tamer pets and very good in pvp (although some of the 5.1 pets have really overshadowed him). If you want him to beat up critters with Triple Snap/Focus/Rampage, then breed 4 is excellent. For critter-bashing, breed 6 is actually pretty good too, because the humanoid passive healing is based on max health.

I have breeds 5 6 and 8 (p/s), and they all get used pretty regularly.

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Ril
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Re: Benefits of having a Breed 5/15 pet?

Postby Ril » January 15th, 2013, 3:02 am

now that was some fast answer, thanks!

i've mixed up triple snap and blitz. i guess i'll have to go back because i'm looking for most efficient ways to get tamers while levelling a pet. i don't really need special pets for regular critters for now but that may change in 5.2, so of course i'll keep my P/P flayer but not level it.


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