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Did I train the wrong moth? Should I pick another one?

Discuss pet battles, strategy and theorycrafting.
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Arkindal
 
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Did I train the wrong moth? Should I pick another one?

Postby Arkindal » October 10th, 2016, 8:58 am

Hello tamers,
I've been collecting pets for a while now, I don't think I'm particularly good at battles, and today I was reading an old post from here, I didn't answer to it because I didn't want to be a necromancer, but it made me wonder if I should pick a different moth and start over with it.
I have a yellow moth S/S, it's pretty awesome. But in the thread I was reading someone said that it would be better to have it P/P, since its already huge speed is enough for it to be faster than most pets, with only five possible pets being faster.
Should I get back to the exodar and try to get myself a P/P? Would it be worth it? Or should I stick to my S/S and be happy that even less pets will ever move first?

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Gráinne
 
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Re: Did I train the wrong moth? Should I pick another one?

Postby Gráinne » October 10th, 2016, 9:38 am

Hi :)

To the best of my recollection, the Yellow Moth is is the only moth that has a P/P breed. That's why people recommend a Yellow Moth specifically, to hit hard before its speed is reduced to normal when it falls below half health.

I can see your collection. http://www.warcraftpets.com/collection/Arkindal/

You have a level 25 P/P Yellow Moth, with 341 power. Why do you think it's an S/S breed? Maybe you have an out of date addon?

This addon
https://mods.curse.com/addons/wow/battle_pet_breedid
will tell you what breed each of your pets is.

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Arkindal
 
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Re: Did I train the wrong moth? Should I pick another one?

Postby Arkindal » October 10th, 2016, 9:58 am

Hi Grainne, thanks for your answer!
Damn, yes, as soon as I saw you post (been refreshing the page over and over^^) I checked my collection, the pet still showed as S/S, I checked the stats and they did seem the stats of a P/P instead. Weird. Update my addons apparently did the trick, as my moth now shows as P/P.
Thank you so much for taking the time to help me out with this one :) I feel a bit silly now.
While I'm here, what would you suggest me to do to be a better tamer? I mostly read tactics on wowhead comments when I have to face harder opponent, and when I get a pet I can never tell if it's good or not, or which breed might be best.

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Gráinne
 
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Re: Did I train the wrong moth? Should I pick another one?

Postby Gráinne » October 10th, 2016, 10:47 am

Don't feel silly. It's easy to get flummoxed by an addon when it gets out of date. ;)

Looking at your achievements, you seem to be doing very well towards becoming an excellent battler.

I'm no expert, but I know that a lot of being a competent battler is having a large and well-developed roster, so keep going with that.

I find that a lot of the rest is solving puzzles. I always enjoyed that. I used to make an puzzle of how to beat tamers using specific pets, like how to beat Aki using only three pets whose names begin with "B". :) After a while, you get to know the pets and the techniques.

PvP is a bit of a lopsided field, but I recommend it highly as a way to learn. Consider the battles as lessons; don't worry about whether you win or lose. When you are meeting only the same dozen pets again and again, that's less effective, but when you meet interesting teams, you see the tricks that other people are using.

Which breed for a pet? It depends on the moveset you want to use.

1. If something in the moveset requires you to be faster, like a Dodge, or "Hits an extra time if you attack first", you go for as much Speed as you can get.

2. After that, if you intend to use a heal, you want as much Power as possible.

3. After that, it's down to Health vs. Power, and it will probably arguable which is better. Generally, I'd favour Power.

That gets you most of the way. Flyers are a particular bugbear of mine, because Health translates into Speed. I never trust my intuition about flyer breeds.

When I was shaping my roster, I looked at the breeds chosen by well-established pet battlers, notably Discodoggy, and I asked myself why they chose each breed for each pet. You can look up anyone's pets on petsear.ch and just ask yourself why they decided on that one. Of course, not every pet is equally important for battling purposes.

If you want to learn when other people think, just ask here. Start a "What Breed for X" thread! We're all so pleased to show off our opinions. ;)

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Arkindal
 
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Re: Did I train the wrong moth? Should I pick another one?

Postby Arkindal » October 10th, 2016, 11:00 am

Thanks a lot Grainne!
I always feel a bit shy about starting to post on forums because you don't often meet nice people, but if the whole community of this website is like you then I might just be part of it :)

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Gráinne
 
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Re: Did I train the wrong moth? Should I pick another one?

Postby Gráinne » October 10th, 2016, 11:14 am

It is a very friendly bunch!

Start now. Which pets do you want to ask advice on their best breeds?

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Arkindal
 
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Re: Did I train the wrong moth? Should I pick another one?

Postby Arkindal » October 10th, 2016, 11:28 am

I wouldn't know! So far the only things I had doubts about have been cleared by comments and posts here or elsewhere, but I'll make sure to start posts when I find something I wanna use :)

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Uduwudu
 
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Re: Did I train the wrong moth? Should I pick another one?

Postby Uduwudu » October 10th, 2016, 2:04 pm

Hi,

Funny you should ask that ... I was reading a strategy on that other website, and one of the suggestions on a Frog, was to not use this one, but make sure you do it with another one with a different pet ID. I have been sensitive to the variations for some time now, thanks to this site, and some experience doing battles, and there is a marked difference, since on a fight against some battle pets, you need the speed badly, because you are getting taken left and right, as opposed to be able to do damage, which you want against a pet that is just ... closing the fight before your cup of coffee!

So, for example, a couple of the aquatics are different on my list, a couple of the mechanicals (Iron Starlette a good example), and a couple of Undead (UV has both and they are great in different fights, where you need to make sure she can last a couple more rounds, instead of one shot over and out.

The moth's, I can not speak for them much, as I would use different moths, like Flaming, the two from the Timeless Isle and the like, for a variation, rather than have two of them of the same kind, even though I think that I do have several of them, like the Ashwing one from Timeless Isle. I kinda learned this while leveling my pets there, from 23 to the top, and watching what each type of them did what and kinda get used to defend it, and some of them are tough, even if they are just plain Poor quality.

I imagine that this would make a whole Encyclopedia on this subject for some 600+ pets, assuming that only 100 or so only have one designation.

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Darkchyld
 
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Re: Did I train the wrong moth? Should I pick another one?

Postby Darkchyld » October 10th, 2016, 7:03 pm

Although the moveset has some differences Vale Flitter also comes in a P/P variant.

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Peanutty
 
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Re: Did I train the wrong moth? Should I pick another one?

Postby Peanutty » October 11th, 2016, 1:47 am

Arkindal wrote:While I'm here, what would you suggest me to do to be a better tamer? I mostly read tactics on wowhead comments when I have to face harder opponent, and when I get a pet I can never tell if it's good or not, or which breed might be best.


This sounds a little contradictory, but instead of reading other people's strats, try figuring out a strategy for yourself first, then go back and read what other people are doing. I find that helps me a lot. Because yes, I can find a way to win, but others might have thought of something even better, and by comparing what I thought up versus what someone else thought up, it helps me fine tune my battle abilities a little more.

Thankfully for the most part most pets are "good" aka serviceable, so even if they aren't all super popular you might still find a use for them on a team (the Family Familiar has done a world of good for that I think). As far as breeds, there's no hard rule that one stat is better than another. What you want to look at are the abilities the pet has, and see what might benefit from certain stats - i.e. Dodge benefits greatly from going first, hence a pet using that ability would benefit from having more points in speed.

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Re: Did I train the wrong moth? Should I pick another one?

Postby Peanutty » October 11th, 2016, 1:50 am

Darkchyld wrote:Although the moveset has some differences Vale Flitter also comes in a P/P variant.


Yes it does. The recommendation of Yellow Moth as P/P came from previous expansions, however it's still a great choice of breed on it as I believe it's still the only moth with that moveset that comes in P/P.

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Gráinne
 
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Re: Did I train the wrong moth? Should I pick another one?

Postby Gráinne » October 11th, 2016, 4:05 am

I actually overlooked the most helpful tips I have for improving:

1. While battling, always - always, always, always - have your Pet Battle Combat Log open

Watch those numbers. Read what is happening. You can even undock your Pet Battle tab and make it bigger, to follow the fight more easily.

After a while of just watching, you will develop a memory of what is happening. Your opponent has 380 health - will the Idol's Crush kill them this round, or do you need to expect they will survive, and what will they do when they survive?

2. Use addons that show opponent cooldowns

I think Pet Tracker is the one I always used for this, but I also used Derangement's Pet Battle Cooldowns now.

I was still counting rounds right up to Pandaria in my own progress, before someone told me, but it becomes unreasonable to keep doing that in PvP.

(and, of course, you need to be using Rematch addon just to keep your sanity.)

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Arkindal
 
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Re: Did I train the wrong moth? Should I pick another one?

Postby Arkindal » October 11th, 2016, 8:40 am

1. While battling, always - always, always, always - have your Pet Battle Combat Log open


Huh. Yeah I never thought about it, I'll start keeping track of my pet battle combat log, sounds like a solid idea.

2. Use addons that show opponent cooldowns


I have one, I don't remember which one I have, but I use it.

Yes it does. The recommendation of Yellow Moth as P/P came from previous expansions, however it's still a great choice of breed on it as I believe it's still the only moth with that moveset that comes in P/P.


So the yellow moth at p/p isn't as viable now? Should I catch more moths? What makes moths in general such good pets?
As for your tip about making my own tactics, today I had the quest "All growl no bite", or something like that, where I had to defeat an epic Chrominius, I tried to come up with my own tactic. The guy ignores any move that does more than X damage, so I used Stormwing with lift-off and flock, Ikky with black claw and flock and Zandalari Anklerender, with blackclaw and hunting party.
I used lift-off to dodge the surge of power, in the end I only used Stormwing and Ikky, the raptor wasn't needed and Ikky had barely a scratch. Thinking about it, I probably could've used a slightly different combo.
Anubisath idol with 1/1/1, starting with sandstorm to mitigate the damage taken, deflection to soak the first surge of power, and then going on with the anklerender, switching back to the idol when it was time to soak. I'll try it next time. But I'm going off topic!


The moth's, I can not speak for them much, as I would use different moths, like Flaming, the two from the Timeless Isle and the like, for a variation, rather than have two of them of the same kind, even though I think that I do have several of them, like the Ashwing one from Timeless Isle


I feel like I should start a moth collection. What's the recommanded breed for those?

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Gráinne
 
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Re: Did I train the wrong moth? Should I pick another one?

Postby Gráinne » October 11th, 2016, 10:58 am

"Thinking about it, I probably could've used a slightly different combo" is a perfect example of learning in action. ;)

I like moths. I don't seem to use them as much now. They have a strong attack on CD, a spammable good attack, and an avoidance move.

Moth Dust, with the 25% chance to stun.

Cocoon Strike when you want to avoid the opponent's nuke.

The Power breed is for killing ASAP. Health breeds are for keeping your racial as long as possible. My favourite was always my H/P Gilded Moth.

The Flamering Moth is great, if you don't need to dodge a nuke. That heal comes in very handy. Mine usually solos Erris, when she has her aquatics.

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Arkindal
 
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Re: Did I train the wrong moth? Should I pick another one?

Postby Arkindal » October 11th, 2016, 11:31 am

I'll try to fetch myself those two moths then.
I see it has alpha strike which would be nice with extra speed, but the only two breeds I'd get both have speed, so what should I focus on? P or H? I'm guessing P/S here.
Moths are also usually very pretty imo.

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Re: Did I train the wrong moth? Should I pick another one?

Postby Peanutty » October 11th, 2016, 5:43 pm

Arkindal wrote:
Yes it does. The recommendation of Yellow Moth as P/P came from previous expansions, however it's still a great choice of breed on it as I believe it's still the only moth with that moveset that comes in P/P.


So the yellow moth at p/p isn't as viable now? Should I catch more moths? What makes moths in general such good pets?


P/P Yellow Moth is still a perfectly fine pet. Not terribly exciting, but a very solid dependable pet especially for new pet battlers. As Grainne said, they have relatively strong attacks and also a dodge move in Cocoon Strike. So catch all the moths you want. I have them all. :)

Arkindal wrote:As for your tip about making my own tactics, today I had the quest "All growl no bite", or something like that, where I had to defeat an epic Chrominius, I tried to come up with my own tactic. The guy ignores any move that does more than X damage, so I used Stormwing with lift-off and flock, Ikky with black claw and flock and Zandalari Anklerender, with blackclaw and hunting party.
I used lift-off to dodge the surge of power, in the end I only used Stormwing and Ikky, the raptor wasn't needed and Ikky had barely a scratch. Thinking about it, I probably could've used a slightly different combo.
Anubisath idol with 1/1/1, starting with sandstorm to mitigate the damage taken, deflection to soak the first surge of power, and then going on with the anklerender, switching back to the idol when it was time to soak. I'll try it next time.


I absolutely recommend trying something different next time. Now that you found something that works, see what other combos you can come up with and then see how they compare to what worked previously. Last time I did that same quest, I tabbed to a different window and came back to find I'd already won the battle while I was staring at something else - good ol Zandalari Raptors!

Arkindal wrote:I see it has alpha strike which would be nice with extra speed, but the only two breeds I'd get both have speed, so what should I focus on? P or H? I'm guessing P/S here.


The reason you don't see people favoring speed over health or power with fliers is their racial boosts their speed while above 50% health. So going with something like a H/P over a P/S is in a roundabout way boosting the speed as well, for moves like Alpha Strike.

That said, there's SO many moths in game. If you're crazy like me, you might as well try to cover as many breeds as possible with all those moths. Very little benefit to having 20 pets with the same breed and moveset, but if you vary the breeds, you might occasionally find that an unexpected breed combo excels in specific situations.

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Arkindal
 
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Re: Did I train the wrong moth? Should I pick another one?

Postby Arkindal » October 11th, 2016, 6:19 pm

I absolutely recommend trying something different next time. Now that you found something that works, see what other combos you can come up with and then see how they compare to what worked previously. Last time I did that same quest, I tabbed to a different window and came back to find I'd already won the battle while I was staring at something else - good ol Zandalari Raptors!


I'll do that, thanks for the tip! And yes! The raptorlings are little monsters, I was surprised to find out they were so solid!

The reason you don't see people favoring speed over health or power with fliers is their racial boosts their speed while above 50% health. So going with something like a H/P over a P/S is in a roundabout way boosting the speed as well, for moves like Alpha Strike.


Oooh... I see. So, if a moth is available only in P/S and H/S I should go for H/S so that they can stay healthy, thus faster, longer?

Also, I have a gilnean raven, I called it Poe (so predictable). Poe isn't S/S because I couldn't find it that breed (in cataclysm I wasn't interested in pet battles, I was just a casual collector), he's P/S. I'll try to find a S/S crow, but I was wondering, given flying pets passive ability, is P/S such a bad breed for a gilnean raven? To this day I'm still looking for an S/S on the AH, but with very little luck.

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Re: Did I train the wrong moth? Should I pick another one?

Postby Gráinne » October 11th, 2016, 7:29 pm

I have both a P/S and a H/S Flamering Moth, mostly because I can't decide which one I want. :)

In battling terms, they're close. The H/S will keep its racial for an extra round 50% of the time, on average. But both are 289, so faster than average even without racial. The P/S hits harder, and will do an extra half-round's worth of damage every four rounds. The difference in heal power is not significant.

The slight advantage that an S/S Raven or Crow has is that they are likely still faster after they lose their racial, and that's significant because they might get that last Nocturnal Strike in just before they die, so it's nice to have one S/S for such cases, but really they do what they do pretty much regardless of breed, so I wouldn't get too obsessive about it.

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Arkindal
 
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Re: Did I train the wrong moth? Should I pick another one?

Postby Arkindal » October 11th, 2016, 9:01 pm

Well, I went on a hunt and I came back with ashwing H/S, flamering P/S, gilded H/S and skywisp H/S.

From what I've read around those should be the suggested breeds for those moths. I also bought enough upgrades to make them all rare (because I'm lazy and don't wanna farm for rare of the right breed). I'll upgrade them tomorrow, just in case someone posts a comment here saying the breeds aren't the right ones :)

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Gráinne
 
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Re: Did I train the wrong moth? Should I pick another one?

Postby Gráinne » October 11th, 2016, 10:15 pm

From a completionist battler's perspective, with something like moths, you have several species to choose from, all with the basic moth moveset

Slicing Wind/Cocoon Strike/Moth Balls/Alpha Strike/Adrenaline Rush/Moth Dust/

and you want to cover as many stat values as possible as a Blue 25. In a case like moths, it's not so much "What is the best breed for X moth?" as "I will eventually have many moths - what stat spread do I want?"

There was a wonderful site that showed you clearly what stat values were possible for each moveset, and which ones you had. It was really useful. Unfortunately, the author has left the game and the site no longer functions, so you have to look breeds and species up individually now.

But to give you an idea, this was my choice of species and breeds for the standard moth moveset:

Amber Moth P/S 1400 305 273
Blue Moth H/B 1627 257 273
Crimson Moth H/B 1546 289 257
Forest Moth H/S 1627 260 273
Fungal Moth S/S 1481 227 341
Garden Moth H/S 1465 276 289
Gilded Moth H/P 1546 305 244
Grey Moth H/S 1546 260 289
Luyu Moth P/S 1400 289 289
Oasis Moth H/B 1627 289 240
Red Moth P/S 1319 305 289
Silky Moth S/S 1319 244 357
Silky Moth S/B 1384 257 322
Swamp Moth H/S 1627 260 273
Tainted Moth H/S 1627 260 273
White Moth H/H 1644 244 292
Yellow Moth P/P 1400 341 244
Yellow Moth P/P 1400 341 244

(and yes, I got two Yellow P/Ps. They came in handy for Ti'un, back when I used to do him with moths, and for No-No.)

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