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The "Best" Breed

Discuss pet battles, strategy and theorycrafting.
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Darolyn
 
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The "Best" Breed

Postby Darolyn » February 23rd, 2016, 5:12 pm

Okay, so we all know that S/S Gilnean Raven is preferred to the much more common B/B.

And a P/S Eternal Strider is preferable in most instances where a somewhat fast, somewhat strong aquatic pet is needed.

What other pets have a "best" breed? Especially wild-caught pets. I've finished colors, I've finished rarity, now I want to double check on some breeds...I could check 700 pets' comments to see what everyone thinks, or we could try to gather some of this information here.

Besides specific pets, the general "having an S/S rabbit" is also helpful.

Any thoughts?
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Re: The "Best" Breed

Postby Peanutty » February 23rd, 2016, 6:38 pm

Obviously there's no hard and fast rule (I personally get more use out of my H/B Rabbit than any S/S one I have) but here's some I like:

P/P Yellow Moth, as its the only P/P moth available and the flying racial somewhat negates the need for speed.

P/P on any whelp that you plan on using tail sweep for, as you want to go last to get the full benefit of that attack.

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Re: The "Best" Breed

Postby Gráinne » February 23rd, 2016, 7:33 pm

Well, the purer the breed - S/S, P/P, H/H - the more raw stat points they get, so pure breeds are always interesting. But it's more about the moveset than the species.

Is an S/S Gilnean Raven better than a B/B? For what purpose, exactly? In PvE, your flyer will almost always be faster than your opposition's non-flyer, so the extra speed is usually wasted. You probably want a Raven for CD, NS, AS until dead.

Let's say you survive 4 rounds, such that the S/S is faster for all 4, while the B/B is faster for 3.

S/S goes: 420 + 560 + 360 + 360 = 1700 damage
B/B goes: 444 + 592 + 370 + 222 = 1628 damage.

So the S/S does more damage. But if the B/B's extra 81 health means it gets in another round, that's another 222 damage, and the B/B wins. Or, if you have exactly 1000 HP to take down in two rounds, the B/B will do it but the S/S won't.

BUT, if you're using Peck instead of Alpha Strike, perhaps because your target has a shield, then the B/B wins in every scenario. The value of the stats depends on moveset rather than species. In the Raven case, Alpha Strike is better than Peck if you're faster - and if the target doesn't have a shield subtracting some damage from each attack.

I got a bit obsessively arithmetical about this when I was cleaning up my collection. With 13 species of rabbits and 22 snakes, you can afford to have lots of sub-optimal breeds in those movesets just for novelty. For the rest, though, I had to make choices.

I worked out, for each moveset, which was the breed I wanted, and went about getting that breed. Sometimes I wasn't sure, and got two or three breeds. Flyers are a problem, since Health translates into Speed. I had some fun during the event using my Flamering Moth this week. People expect a moth to heal about as much as they expect the Spanish Inquisition. :P I still don't know whether I prefer the H/S or the P/S breed. I suppose I could work out some scenario, but I'm lazy, and I still have 50 slots left.

S/S is quite specific. With these pets, you are sacrificing everything else to be faster, so there needs to be a move in the moveset that makes it pay off - a stun, a blind, a swap, or an extra hit if you're faster. If you're going to use Flurry, Crystal Prison, Blinding Poison, Alpha Strike, Blitz, or avoidances like Dodge, Lift-Off or any other ability that removes you from attacks for a round, you want to be as fast as you can.

With S/S, you are probably aiming at PvP, because in PvE that speed likely won't pay off so well. Here are some notable pets I surely want in S/S Darkmoon Rabbit, Flayer Youngling, Death Adder Hatchling, Fiendish Imp, Alpine Foxling, Alpine Hare or other fast rabbit, Crow, Bronze Whelpling, Frostfur Rat, Lil' Bad Wolf, Mechanical Scorpid, Nightshade Sproutling, Ore Eater, and on and on. Discodoggy has recently been starring an S/S Prairie Mouse whose party trick is to use his speed for Survival.

For a different set of priorities, consider Junglebeak. Even though the P/P breed has only 1339 health, you will probably be using it to include a Rain Dance that will heal for 353, making the effective health almost 1700. You will also be getting your double-crit-chance 706 damage Nocturnal Strike and a 353 damage Peck out of its innings, and with any luck you can retire it to the back line then to fight another day.
Last edited by Gráinne on February 23rd, 2016, 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Quintessence
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Re: The "Best" Breed

Postby Quintessence » February 23rd, 2016, 8:55 pm

What about Power oozes (bigger heals from Absorb)? Specifically the P/P Jade Oozeling.
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Re: The "Best" Breed

Postby Gráinne » February 23rd, 2016, 9:22 pm

Quintessence wrote:What about Power oozes (bigger heals from Absorb)? Specifically the P/P Jade Oozeling.


I must have been thinking the same way, since I see I chose P/P for Jade Oozeling.

Just as health translates into Speed for Flyers, Power translates into Health for Healers. Another one to add to the must-have P/P list would be Emperor Crab. In a battle with steady damage, a H/H Emperor Crab will retain higher health than a P/P for 5-8 rounds, but after that, the extra healing and mitigation from the P/P mean that it will last longer. Similarly with the Emerald Proto-Whelp and Spawn of Onyxia.

What else is on the must-have P/P list? I'm tiring of looking things up. :) I can think of Nexus Whelpling immediately, simply for the purest glass cannon effect. :)

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Re: The "Best" Breed

Postby Paladance » February 23rd, 2016, 11:55 pm

Reposting Bomb Strikes Again:

Paladance wrote:*** This post may not guarantee 100% applicability and can be modified in any moment. ***

Well… take a look on your pet.
Do you find your passive meaningful for your strategy or is it just a nice addition?
Are there abilities that work well together?
And what else would you like to make use of?

When you "see" what's your pet going to do, answer to these questions in the order:

If so, focus on Power.

If not:

  • Are you gonna use a spell that obviously performs better if pet is faster? (e.g. Alpha Strike, Flurry)
  • Are you gonna use an avoidance (e.g. Dodge) or crowd-control (e.g. Clobber)?
  • Are you gonna rely on various buffs or debuffs that either base on fractions (e.g. Crouch) or provide big values already? (e.g. Shell Armor)
  • Additionally, are there breeds that give your pet more than 324 speed on 25th lvl?
If so, focus on Speed.

If not:

  • Are you gonna use a spell that obviously performs better if pet is tougher? (e.g. Explode)
  • Are you gonna benefit from Sunny Day weather?
  • Are you gonna benefit from Humanoid, Beast, Flying or Mechanical passives?
  • Is your pet so powerful anyway that is likely to do overkills a lot?
If so, focus on Health.

If not, focus on Power, or pick up anything as it isn't definitely "your" pet. :)

Note that "focus on" doesn't have to mean that you need to, or are able to pick up the supportive breed.
It can just move your focus away from less desirable breeds.

Remember also about the order. You may have a pet that can commit overkills, but benefits from speed. Then health isn't as much important. ;p


An additional note: It isn't said directly, but some abilities may support both power and speed, dependably on the individual details. Notable examples are armors and heals, both relying highly on numbers and being influenced by initiative (protecting once more). Mentioned Shell Armor used by Ore Eater makes wonders on S/S breed, because 1) 341 speed is a high-tier, 2) Shell Armor with high numbers may be an "overtank" 3) and even needed, a P/P Crusher has more power than any Ore Eater anyway.

Note also that the (de)buff thing not always relies on speed in a way you could think about it. The most known example is the undeads' passive, but there are also other cases that may encourage you to abandon speed, like a Reckless Strike. Lift-Off family is best when a speed buff cast on you / speed debuff cast on enemy expires.

A quote from the same thread regarding the elimination method:

Sagcat wrote:While this is overly simplistic, if you're looking for the better breeds, consider this:

The H/H, P/P, & S/S breeds have the biggest bonuses.
then
Breeds with two stats listed (P/S, H/S, & H/P) are next best.
then
Breeds with one stat bonus (P/B, H/B, & S/B)
then
Balance (B/B) is your "ah crap, I got a balance" bottom feeder.

The reason it's overly simplistic is because some specific uses for a pet require particular features. For example, the Unborn Val'kyr comes in Balance B/B (everything gets a small bonus) and Guardian H/H (health gets a large bonus.) If your intent is to Curse of Doom followed by Unholy Ascension, then the extra health is useless. You're committing suicide on the second turn. You want damage, and the B/B (292) has more power than the H/H (276).

But for the most part, the rule of thumb should help guide you.


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Re: The "Best" Breed

Postby Shingetsu » February 24th, 2016, 6:35 am

Hm... let's see:

- a P/P Infinite Whelpling is pretty good (vs. Cymre for example)
- a H/H Minfernal has the highest Explode dmg if I remember correctly

Other than that I really love my P/P Emerald Proto-Whelp and P/P Emperor Crab.

Oh and my S/S Cogblade Raptor vs. Major Payne.

And my S/S Flayer Youngling and H/H Scourged Whelpling vs. Antari.

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Re: The "Best" Breed

Postby Africanleopard » February 26th, 2016, 1:33 pm

Gráinne wrote:Well, the purer the breed - S/S, P/P, H/H - the more raw stat points they get, so pure breeds are always interesting. But it's more about the moveset than the species.

Is an S/S Gilnean Raven better than a B/B? For what purpose, exactly? In PvE, your flyer will almost always be faster than your opposition's non-flyer, so the extra speed is usually wasted. You probably want a Raven for CD, NS, AS until dead.

Let's say you survive 4 rounds, such that the S/S is faster for all 4, while the B/B is faster for 3.

S/S goes: 420 + 560 + 360 + 360 = 1700 damage
B/B goes: 444 + 592 + 370 + 222 = 1628 damage.

So the S/S does more damage. But if the B/B's extra 81 health means it gets in another round, that's another 222 damage, and the B/B wins. Or, if you have exactly 1000 HP to take down in two rounds, the B/B will do it but the S/S won't.

BUT, if you're using Peck instead of Alpha Strike, perhaps because your target has a shield, then the B/B wins in every scenario. The value of the stats depends on moveset rather than species. In the Raven case, Alpha Strike is better than Peck if you're faster - and if the target doesn't have a shield subtracting some damage from each attack.

I got a bit obsessively arithmetical about this when I was cleaning up my collection. With 13 species of rabbits and 22 snakes, you can afford to have lots of sub-optimal breeds in those movesets just for novelty. For the rest, though, I had to make choices.

I worked out, for each moveset, which was the breed I wanted, and went about getting that breed. Sometimes I wasn't sure, and got two or three breeds. Flyers are a problem, since Health translates into Speed. I had some fun during the event using my Flamering Moth this week. People expect a moth to heal about as much as they expect the Spanish Inquisition. :P I still don't know whether I prefer the H/S or the P/S breed. I suppose I could work out some scenario, but I'm lazy, and I still have 50 slots left.


Wow - how did you do the calculations? I am sitting with the same problem [I am sure there are many of us with the same issue - not that we are obsessive collectors :lol: ]. is there a spreadsheet out there, or did you go to each pet and go through the spells individually for each combination of breed?

For eg I have a death adder hatchling - one is P/P and the other B/B - which should I be keeping? Logic says P/P because B/B is not fast enough for the Blinding poison, but the P/P will hit a lot harder - I looked at the values manually.... But in your example above you generated some values for 4 hits - just wondering how you did that :D.

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Re: The "Best" Breed

Postby Paladance » February 26th, 2016, 3:10 pm

Africanleopard wrote:Wow - how did you do the calculations? I am sitting with the same problem [I am sure there are many of us with the same issue - not that we are obsessive collectors :lol: ]. is there a spreadsheet out there, or did you go to each pet and go through the spells individually for each combination of breed?

For eg I have a death adder hatchling - one is P/P and the other B/B - which should I be keeping? Logic says P/P because B/B is not fast enough for the Blinding poison, but the P/P will hit a lot harder - I looked at the values manually.... But in your example above you generated some values for 4 hits - just wondering how you did that :D.


We've figured out damage/heal/protection values recently in this thread. ;)

DAH is definitely worth picking up the S/S one to support Crouch and Blinding Poison. You may also keep the P/P one for the pure damaging abilities, but more like a handy "what if" -- the poison combo is hard to time. :) Other pets with 2 of 3 abilities may be needed for a further comparison.
Note that as you have both breeds available, a B/B one is no longer needed.

Shingetsu wrote:- a H/H Minfernal has the highest Explode dmg if I remember correctly


You're close, it's the second one ex aequo with a Crimson Spore. The first one is a H/H Blackfuse Bombling. :)
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Re: The "Best" Breed

Postby Shingetsu » February 27th, 2016, 5:05 am

Paladance wrote:You're close, it's the second one ex aequo with a Crimson Spore. The first one is a H/H Blackfuse Bombling. :)

Oh well. At least I was close. :lol:

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Re: The "Best" Breed

Postby Vakeetah » February 27th, 2016, 8:48 am

Can't really call it "best" at anything, but a P/B Yellow-Bellied Marmot can pull a very fun trick against opposing fast pets:
1) Leap (gains a massive speed boost)
2) Burrow (goes first, so avoids the incoming attacK)
3) Speed boost expires while underground, so it's slower again, avoiding another attack, then striking with Burrow.

Super gimmicky and potentially useless, but hey, it's still unique in its own way. There are other marmots but their movements are shuffled around - only the Prairie Dog shares the same abilities in the same slots - but it's less optimized due to being faster and more likely to have a permanent Speed advantage.

I left most of my ramblings on its Wowhead database entry during 5.4. Yes, boredom does things to people! :lol:
Along with Prairie Dog, the Yellow-Bellied Marmot is one of the few pets that has access to the powerful Leap + Burrow combination.

This combo is interesting in that Leap boosts the pet's speed for 1 round - which you can use to Burrow at the start of next turn, avoiding the enemy attack. The speed boost will expire while your pet is underground, rendering it slower than the opponent, and attacking last that round - effectively avoiding another attack!

Yellow-Bellied Marmot, in its P/B breed, is the best pet to pull this trick, since it's the slower of the Marmots at 273; while also packing the most attack of them (289). It's still an above average speed, but definitely below what is considered fast by most standards; while its "boosted" speed, 546, is even above the fastest flying pets!
(not that you'd want to use this skillset against them, anyway...)

Other marmots or pets with Burrow may pull similar tricks by clever usage of speed buffs or debuffs (timing it with the last turn of the buff/debuff) but none of them will be as damaging nor readily available as Leap.

Overall, this a surprisingly tough and annoying Critter... that eats other Critters. Never mind the the cute and innocent looks... this one's a true predator!
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Re: The "Best" Breed

Postby Gráinne » February 28th, 2016, 11:33 pm

Africanleopard wrote:Wow - how did you do the calculations? I am sitting with the same problem [I am sure there are many of us with the same issue - not that we are obsessive collectors :lol: ]. is there a spreadsheet out there, or did you go to each pet and go through the spells individually for each combination of breed?

For eg I have a death adder hatchling - one is P/P and the other B/B - which should I be keeping? Logic says P/P because B/B is not fast enough for the Blinding poison, but the P/P will hit a lot harder - I looked at the values manually.... But in your example above you generated some values for 4 hits - just wondering how you did that :D.


Oh yes, I have a spreadsheet. Oh boy, do I have a spreadsheet! :P I started it when I decided to optimise my collection. It has now grown huge, with tabs, tables of species, of breeds, of abilities, of stats, of cooldowns - formulas, and VLOOKUPs all over the place. But only recently did I add the formulas for calculating damage and healing, and in the example I gave above it was faster just to look the numbers up on the WarcraftPets page.

I keep being tempted to use the data to write a Pet Battle Solver that would brute-force all the possible decisions, and therefore result, in a given battle. And then I think of the, ahem, idiosyncrasies of some of the pets and abilities and I leave it for another day. :)

I'm feeling a bit guilty that I yammered on without progressing Darolyn's request for a concrete list. I'll have a look tomorrow. :)

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Re: The "Best" Breed

Postby Darolyn » February 29th, 2016, 2:14 pm

Gráinne wrote:
Africanleopard wrote:Wow - how did you do the calculations? I am sitting with the same problem [I am sure there are many of us with the same issue - not that we are obsessive collectors :lol: ]. is there a spreadsheet out there, or did you go to each pet and go through the spells individually for each combination of breed?

For eg I have a death adder hatchling - one is P/P and the other B/B - which should I be keeping? Logic says P/P because B/B is not fast enough for the Blinding poison, but the P/P will hit a lot harder - I looked at the values manually.... But in your example above you generated some values for 4 hits - just wondering how you did that :D.


Oh yes, I have a spreadsheet. Oh boy, do I have a spreadsheet! :P I started it when I decided to optimise my collection. It has now grown huge, with tabs, tables of species, of breeds, of abilities, of stats, of cooldowns - formulas, and VLOOKUPs all over the place. But only recently did I add the formulas for calculating damage and healing, and in the example I gave above it was faster just to look the numbers up on the WarcraftPets page.

I keep being tempted to use the data to write a Pet Battle Solver that would brute-force all the possible decisions, and therefore result, in a given battle. And then I think of the, ahem, idiosyncrasies of some of the pets and abilities and I leave it for another day. :)

I'm feeling a bit guilty that I yammered on without progressing Darolyn's request for a concrete list. I'll have a look tomorrow. :)


Don't feel guilty! This is exactly the kind of discussion I wanted to provoke, ULTIMATELY collecting that "concrete" list, but seeing the path we take to get there is half the fun.

I want to know why one pet battler swears by their P/P Iron Starlette, while another will ONLY use their H/H (I personally have a P/P, P/S, and H/H all at 25, but anyway....)

Your discussion enthralled me. I'm still in awe over the numbers and logical progression.

My spreadsheets usually revolve around how many levels I have left to go. (816 as of this morning...I should start using stones to level).
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Re: The "Best" Breed

Postby Gráinne » March 2nd, 2016, 10:56 pm

Darolyn wrote:I want to know why one pet battler swears by their P/P Iron Starlette, while another will ONLY use their H/H


That one is straightforward enough, I think.

What do you expect to do with a Starlette?

Wind-Up, Supercharge, Wind-Up
followed by Wind-Up (you die and resurrect) Wind-Up
with a good chance of a Powerball in there somewhere, which may cheese you an extra round.

Because of the CD on Supercharge you mostly don't get a shot at a second one.

Of course, not all will go like this. You may face an Elemental, or a Block or Dodger, but, say, against an Evil Undead team this is what you can expect.

OK, so you have two big hits. Let's look at the damage of Wind-Up:

H/H: 1498 damage on the Supercharged, 666 on the second.
P/S: 1645 damage on the Supercharged, 731 on the second.
P/P: 1827 damage on the Supercharged, 812 on the second,

The P/P Supercharged round is overkill for anything short of a Weeb or other beefy H/H.

The P/S Supercharged round will one-shot a lot of pets, and if you add a Powerball it will do for the rest. However, what is critical here is that after a Powerball, its speed goes to 327, which means it outspeeds all the 325 superspeedies. It gains a round against any fast pet except an Imp, a Flyer or a Rabbit. This means that the final Wind-Up mostly can't be blocked on the round.

The virtue of the H/H is its extra 325 health, which more often than not gives it an extra round to live. This changes the expected rotation. With a H/H, you have a reasonable hope of getting off two Supercharged Wind-Ups, hopefully on two different pets, so that the H/H will take out not just one pet, but (nearly all of) a second one as well.

Now, how well this works will depend on what you're facing, of course, but since Starlettes are quite common in my PvP meta, I've had a lot of chances to see how people use them. :)

For PvP, I favour the P/S approach myself. Maybe I should give the H/H a try!

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Re: The "Best" Breed

Postby Africanleopard » March 10th, 2016, 1:47 pm

Darolyn wrote:
I want to know why one pet battler swears by their P/P Iron Starlette, while another will ONLY use their H/H (I personally have a P/P, P/S, and H/H all at 25, but anyway....)


Nope - I don't have OCD :D But I have the H/P as well. I did the happy dance last night as I picked up the H/H for 125G - been looking for one for a while. Some strats you need the H/H to survive for eg Stitches Jr http://www.wow-petguide.com/index.php?m=2&s=14&a=2...

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Re: The "Best" Breed

Postby Darolyn » March 10th, 2016, 3:22 pm

Africanleopard wrote:
Darolyn wrote:
I want to know why one pet battler swears by their P/P Iron Starlette, while another will ONLY use their H/H (I personally have a P/P, P/S, and H/H all at 25, but anyway....)


Nope - I don't have OCD :D But I have the H/P as well. I did the happy dance last night as I picked up the H/H for 125G - been looking for one for a while. Some strats you need the H/H to survive for eg Stitches Jr http://www.wow-petguide.com/index.php?m=2&s=14&a=2...


I'd have the H/P but I hate switching pets and forgetting which toon I left the caged one on, lol. Else I'd have all breeds of this pet at 25, for kicks.

To get my H/H, I bought up about 50 of the unlearned items on the AH, and kept learning/caging until I got the one I wanted. The same brute force method I used on the Nightshade Sproutling. I resold many of them, so I was only out a few hundred gold once all was said and done. Grats on the 125g!
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Re: The "Best" Breed

Postby Discodoggy » March 13th, 2016, 2:33 pm

Quintessence wrote:What about Power oozes (bigger heals from Absorb)? Specifically the P/P Jade Oozeling.


I had to check the date on your post...

P/P Jade Oozeling used to be a force in the queue. Power creep has cut it down, but it used to be on a lot of folks best PvP pet list.

I agree with Griane, S/S fliers are not usually the best breed. I prefer the P/S raven myself, but I've never been much of a raven user. In general I find P/P or H/H fliers much more useful than speedy fliers.


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