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Prowl x Arcane Dash and Weakness

Discuss pet battles, strategy and theorycrafting.
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Bloodykins
 
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Prowl x Arcane Dash and Weakness

Postby Bloodykins » February 3rd, 2016, 5:56 pm

Prowl
Arcane Dash (( wowhead has it at 592 for a lvl 25 b/b rare Brightpaw ))
Weakness

When I apply Weakness from my Wretched Servant to a Prowled-Brightclaw, I'm getting hit for 1172, which seems to be ignoring the Weakness affect ?

788 * 1.5 = 1182 << close to what I'm getting hit for.
788 * 1.5 * .5 = 591 << what I think I should be getting hit for.

I wonder if this is because the sequence goes like:
Turn:
BrightPaw -> Casts Prowl
WretchedServant -> Casts Weakness
Turn:
WretchedServant (now faster) - anything
BrightPaw -> Arcane Dash

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Gráinne
 
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Re: Prowl x Arcane Dash and Weakness

Postby Gráinne » February 4th, 2016, 2:50 am

The first thing I should note is that while the Warcraftpets page on Arcane Dash says

Deals 788 Magic damage and has a 25% chance to stun the target.


the tooltip on my Brightpaw says

Deals 586 Magic damage and has a 25% chance to stun the target.


So 586 is our base number. (Is 788 what it would be on a full P/P breed? Brightpaw is an S/B.)

Prowl increases the damage by 150%, not to 150%.

So a Prowled Arcane Dash does
586 + 1.5*586
= 586 + 879
= 1465 damage.

I just tested this with my Brightpaw against Aki, and 1465 was exactly what it hit for.

Now. if Weakness removed half the damage of the original Arcane Dash, but did not affect the 150% bonus, then it would hit for

1465 - 586/2
= 1465 - 293
= 1172

which is the number you're being hit for.

I have no inside information about how it's coded, but I'm guessing this is the logic that's being applied.

Occasionally, I get the urge to code a pet battle simulator/solver. It's weirdnesses like this that remind me that could be a bad idea! :P

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Jerebear
 
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Re: Prowl x Arcane Dash and Weakness

Postby Jerebear » February 4th, 2016, 7:58 am

Just to add to what Granne has already said:

The general rule of thumb if if the buffs and debuffs are on you, they are additive/subtractive. If one is on you and the other is on the enemy, they become multiplicative (but not quite directly...there are some rules). In your case they were additive because both prowl and weakness were on Brightpaw

Weakness = -0.5
Prowl = +1.5

combination => +1.0

This is the bonus damage so it is damage = base *(1 + 1.0) = base * 2.0

Other things to remember:
1. if some of the buffs/debuffs are specific fixed values (like shell shield) and some are % damage based like prowl, the fixed value buffs/debuffs get added and subtracted from the base value first and then the combination of the % damaged based are figured in after the fact. This is why shields block stampeded abilities even after you have the shattered defenses buff up (like if you got hit by the first round while putting up the shield).

2. The %health damage attacks like explode ignore buffs and debuffs that would normally change the amount of damage.

EDIT: here is an old discussion we had on this...has some math:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10757&p=86398&hilit=debuff#p86398
Carry Pet Experience Reference Guide:
http://www.warcraftpets.com/community/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8829

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Paladance
 
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Re: Prowl x Arcane Dash and Weakness

Postby Paladance » February 4th, 2016, 3:49 pm

You've summed up it nicely. These tips should be included somewhere. ;)

I do remember how messing around with Darkness and accuracy debuffs resulted in a -10% accuracy of a certain ability. :lol:

One more thing about the calculating order:
Someone has suggested to Aranesh that Frostfur Rat can take down Stitches Jr. However, I was not concerned if its attack is actually effective because I was not sure if the critter bonus is included in the armour test.
Haven't noticed, however, that someone on Wowhead has already claimed the effectiveness with a non-powerful breed, answering indirectly to the question.

So here we go! :D The critter bonus is included indeed.

Additionally, a "Black Flock" Ikky can still beat Dor the Wall despite the shell shield.
I'm not sure, however, what (flying damage or Black Claw) does contribute to this in a more meaningful way.
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http://hastebin.com/raw/ifaqipexuq

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Ziboo
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Re: Prowl x Arcane Dash and Weakness

Postby Ziboo » February 4th, 2016, 4:48 pm

Scary math abilities (imho!), but thanks for having them.

>>Other things to remember:
1. if some of the buffs/debuffs are specific fixed values (like shell shield) and some are % damage based like prowl, the fixed value buffs/debuffs get added and subtracted from the base value first and then the combination of the % damaged based are figured in after the fact. This is why shields block stampeded abilities even after you have the shattered defenses buff up (like if you got hit by the first round while putting up the shield).

2. The %health damage attacks like explode ignore buffs and debuffs that would normally change the amount of damage.

<<
That explains a lot. I wondered how that was calculated. Learned something new!

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Jerebear
 
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Re: Prowl x Arcane Dash and Weakness

Postby Jerebear » February 4th, 2016, 7:39 pm

Paladance wrote:Additionally, a "Black Flock" Ikky can still beat Dor the Wall despite the shell shield.
I'm not sure, however, what (flying damage or Black Claw) does contribute to this in a more meaningful way.


It's the black claw. Remember since both shell shield and black claw are on the same target they add, shell shield will subtract 70ish damage and black claw will add 140ish damage (or whatever the specific numbers are) for a net gain, thus not cancelling the flock. They flying damage bonus vs the aquatic won't help at all unless you can get past the shell shield first (which is what black claw does).

That said if you take a P/P bird with flock and put it against a non power version of a pet with shell shield, the base damage of flock might be high enough to beat the shell shield (haven't actually checked...just surmising here).
Carry Pet Experience Reference Guide:
http://www.warcraftpets.com/community/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8829

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Paladance
 
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Ability power output with multiple modifiers

Postby Paladance » February 5th, 2016, 12:23 am

Thank you.

I can recall now that racial bonuses are not included in the shield mechanic.
Imagine my anger when I saw that 210 damage of Cogblade Raptor can't bypass the Mr. Pointy's 197 (?) armour (because it's actually 140).
If I had put Exposed Wounds (-70), the shielding output would have been 127, so it would have worked. :oops:

The fixed damage of health-based abilities seems actually quite intuitive. However, IIRC a Corpse Explosion DoT behaves… just like DoT, it can also be modified by Unholy Ascension.
Could anyone check this? Still no gametime :\
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http://hastebin.com/raw/ifaqipexuq

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Jerebear
 
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Re: Prowl x Arcane Dash and Weakness

Postby Jerebear » February 5th, 2016, 7:46 am

Just tested it this morning using Valk for the Unholy Ascension, Weebom for corpse explosion, and kovok for black claw

A corpse explosion dot on an enemy with both unholy ascension and black claw up and 1481 max health ticks for 74 damage.

5% of 1481 is 74.05. So it looks like nothing affects the DoT of corpse explosion (it has fixed damage regardless of buffs and debuffs). I even tested with the beast racial up on Kovok and it still ticked for 74.
Carry Pet Experience Reference Guide:
http://www.warcraftpets.com/community/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8829

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Paladance
 
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Re: Prowl x Arcane Dash and Weakness

Postby Paladance » February 5th, 2016, 9:51 am

Okay, that's fine, of course.
Just for checking all things, have you tested it against an Aquatic pet too?

(I also believe that Beast racial doesn't buff the non-damaging abilities.)
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