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Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Discuss pet battles, strategy and theorycrafting.
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Chibimage
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Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Postby Chibimage » June 14th, 2015, 7:12 am

I anticipate a lot of complaining. Pair him with a Fossilized Hatchling (for trolly effect) and it's just... not even a contest. He's *strong* and has so much AOE damage I don't really see a viable counter right now. Add in the worst trolls as a third - Weebom or MPD - you're going to have people ripping their hair out against you.

All in all, it reminds me of the Kovok+Murkalot before the nerf. Kinda fun :p
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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Postby Luciandk » June 14th, 2015, 11:00 am

Undead aoe damage is pretty much out of control in pet pvp. Need more strong aquatics to make the family more popular and keep the rotters in check.

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Postby Ruststorm » June 15th, 2015, 2:58 am

This makes me kinda eager to get Graves asap actually... :O

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Postby Myon » June 15th, 2015, 3:10 am

It's really just the undead racial I feel. Pets with non-undead damage AoE like the MPD and Fragment of Anger were farming wins just fine before Graves came along.

If you're an elemental or magic or critter pet for instance, you're basically playing with the handicap of not having a racial at all because those are so weak they hardly ever do anything for you. The AoE heavy metagame also indirectly hurts fliers because often you'll come in already half dead with no chance to make use of your racial.

Undeads on the other hand just have it good, you're getting 2 extra rounds of damage in no matter what. Think of how many games with a non-undead pet would have been swung if you were given two extra swings at your opponent like undeads do.

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Postby Jaladar » June 15th, 2015, 7:27 am

Chibimage wrote:I anticipate a lot of complaining. Pair him with a Fossilized Hatchling (for trolly effect)...


OK I don't do a lot of pet PVP (read-none, hence I still don't have Stunted Direhorn), so I'm curious, what do you mean when you say "Trolly Effect"?

Jal

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Chibimage
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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Postby Chibimage » June 15th, 2015, 9:21 am

Basically it means that you're playing with a stacked deck - and you know it... and you play with it on purpose.

Fossilized Hatchling, MPD, Weebom -- these are some of the worst, cruelest PvP pets to use. They are overpowered and tough to counter. They *can* be countered (I've got a team set up just for when I engage with a MPD/Foss Hatch/Weebom team, that wins) but your average PvPer cannot handle them with most team set ups.

I've only got about 2200 pvp wins under my belt, but that's enough experience to say what pets are "troll" pets and which are not.

Whenever I see elementals, I just want to hug that person. When I see people trying a themed team, I want to reach out and shake their hand. In the meta game, playing something underpowered is a trying experience.
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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Postby Saasan » June 15th, 2015, 11:01 pm

Chibimage wrote:I've only got about 2200 pvp wins under my belt, but that's enough experience to say what pets are "troll" pets and which are not.

Whenever I see elementals, I just want to hug that person. When I see people trying a themed team, I want to reach out and shake their hand. In the meta game, playing something underpowered is a trying experience.


First off, is 2200 battles considered an "only" situation?! Yikes, son, you have skill!

Second, I'm curious why you want to hug people who use elementals...? Are the underpowered right now? I haven't tried my snow team since Graves hit, but it wasn't doing poorly.

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Postby Vevy » June 16th, 2015, 12:45 am

The Elemental passive--unaffected by weather--often doesn't reap the rewards that other passives do, like the extra undead turn. To be fair, people play elementals quite regularly (and the Teroclaw is a top tier pet that spends part of its time/experience as elemental). Molten Corgi's appear regularly.

I played with Graves over a 24-hour period and I think he is strong. I got a bit bored with the team I was using. I only started pet battling in January (PvP since March) and this has been my first time amidst a PvP meta shift. Graves, and Undead in general, force a lot of thought in team building that limits a lot of options. As a poster noted above, flyers, who have my favorite passive, are risky in an undead-AoE heavy meta unless you can maximize their passive on the first two turns.

Graves has changed my approach to the game to the extent that I try to make more fun teams now as I can easily pair him with Fragment of Anger and a Mech Pandaren Dragon and win a lot. Some people are content with the easier wins. Some days, I want those too. But I'm finding it more fun to find creative solutions to Graves. I've been running a lot of Fox and Vengeful Porcupette and I'm about to experiment with skunks.

I, too, see my 2200-2300 PvP wins as a small amount in the large scheme of things.

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Postby Skavenged » June 16th, 2015, 7:30 am

I've got 4740 PvP wins, and honestly I expected to have 5k by now. Unfortunately, Graves has slowed me down considerably since 3 of my go-to teams feature an imp doing back row damage. I have come up with a Graves counter, but it gets squashed by pretty much everything else. So anyway, I decided I might as well join the masses and get Graves as well. So if anyone needs me, I'll be playing a game I don't like, to get what I need to play the game that I DO like

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Postby Happygilmore » June 16th, 2015, 7:30 am

if u are haveing trouble with graves just run Frostwolf Ghostpup, use Scratch, heal, and Ghostly Bite. U will negate most of his damage while 3 shoting him.

Start with scratch, then heal, then scratch, then ghostly bite and he is dead.



I think the pup might just be my favoite pet of the moment because it counters both humanoid and undead while healing the team from aoe damage.

Weebomination gets wrecked by him since the heal heals for 2 turns worth of cleave.

Another very important pet in the moment is Ghastly kid, it just answers so much in the meta, and consume magic gives people fits.

I use Teroclaw, Ghostpup, Ghastly kid and have over 80% win rate so far after 30 games.

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Postby Chibimage » June 16th, 2015, 8:02 am

30 games is a paltry sum unfortunately to really claim you have a counter. Unfortunately while you can have a counter to 1 pet on a team -- that's the simple and easy part -- countering an *entire* team is the tricky bit. Roll out with MPD, Graves and Foss Hatch and good luck with your Ghostpup. Besides, um... you save Graves for the pocket. I suppose that's giving something away but -- his Grave Destruction hits for 668 on one pet if used on one. Yes, you can use it to spread AOE damage - and depending on your matchup you might choose to do that - but if someone is running a Ghostpup you wait.
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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Postby Biscuit » June 16th, 2015, 11:08 am

I've been forced to roll with a strict anti-graves team lately.
It works pretty well with the exception of a Murkalot, Graves, MPD team. (I hate you)
That is the strongest team in the game right now IMO.

(all of these breeds are fast enough to out-speed almost every undead pet)

B/B Mud Jumper
* tongue lash
* mud slide
* bubble

P/B Jubling
* tongue lash
* healing wave
* swarm of flies

P/S Blietoad
* tongue lash
* cleansing rain
* frog kiss

If I run into a flying and/or human team, I quickly and quietly make my exit haha.

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Postby Happygilmore » June 16th, 2015, 12:06 pm

Chibimage wrote:30 games is a paltry sum unfortunately to really claim you have a counter. Unfortunately while you can have a counter to 1 pet on a team -- that's the simple and easy part -- countering an *entire* team is the tricky bit. Roll out with MPD, Graves and Foss Hatch and good luck with your Ghostpup. Besides, um... you save Graves for the pocket. I suppose that's giving something away but -- his Grave Destruction hits for 668 on one pet if used on one. Yes, you can use it to spread AOE damage - and depending on your matchup you might choose to do that - but if someone is running a Ghostpup you wait.


I am 10 and 0 against the team u discribe. All of them are aoe abilities while I can solo two pets of that team with one pet while healing my team. the tero/kid combo deals with so much its incredible. the Pup is the best aoe counter I have found as long as they are using undead pets to do it. MPD is somewhat annoying but only because of decoy. But even then u take reduced damage from breath and can heal all the damage from the aoe.

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Postby Drudatz » June 16th, 2015, 12:58 pm

Chibimage wrote:30 games is a paltry sum unfortunately to really claim you have a counter. Unfortunately while you can have a counter to 1 pet on a team -- that's the simple and easy part -- countering an *entire* team is the tricky bit. Roll out with MPD, Graves and Foss Hatch and good luck with your Ghostpup.
Sorry that team is sooo steam rolled with a tree a sun flower and whatever you like (I use the Ore eater cause of his awsome shield [seriously reducing a 800 manag surge to 200 dmg is so wicked!] and his self healing through the poison.

Sorry but graves is very overrated after all its just a WEAK unded pet.

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Postby Vevy » June 16th, 2015, 1:08 pm

Happygilmore wrote:
Chibimage wrote:30 games is a paltry sum unfortunately to really claim you have a counter. Unfortunately while you can have a counter to 1 pet on a team -- that's the simple and easy part -- countering an *entire* team is the tricky bit. Roll out with MPD, Graves and Foss Hatch and good luck with your Ghostpup. Besides, um... you save Graves for the pocket. I suppose that's giving something away but -- his Grave Destruction hits for 668 on one pet if used on one. Yes, you can use it to spread AOE damage - and depending on your matchup you might choose to do that - but if someone is running a Ghostpup you wait.


I am 10 and 0 against the team u discribe. All of them are aoe abilities while I can solo two pets of that team with one pet while healing my team. the tero/kid combo deals with so much its incredible. the Pup is the best aoe counter I have found as long as they are using undead pets to do it. MPD is somewhat annoying but only because of decoy. But even then u take reduced damage from breath and can heal all the damage from the aoe.


Your strategy sounds fine. I personally can't stand using Kid or Hatchling. The Teroclaw Hatchling, is my opinion, is as powerful if not more powerful than Graves. The week Graves became available, I saw a brief shelving of Kids and Teroclaws in the NA meta and I was happier. I'd prefer a Graves meta without Kids and Teroclaws. The trick in PvP, of course, is accounting for for both contingencies without gimping yourself. Teroclaws are one reason I like flyers--those that are faster than the Teroclaw can be used to snipe the bird's health and bring it into that underpowered low hit point zone where it loses the racial passive. Yet as we've discussed, Graves/Aoe heavy undead teams are not friendly to flyers.

I've used a lot of Zomstrock since Graves release as it is decent against a Graves team (mitigation with armor and huge AoE with Carpnado) and as it is good against a Teroclaw that has assumed elemental form and has burned its dodge. Carpnado murders vulnerable Teroclaws.

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Postby Happygilmore » June 16th, 2015, 7:33 pm

Vevy wrote:
Happygilmore wrote:
Chibimage wrote:30 games is a paltry sum unfortunately to really claim you have a counter. Unfortunately while you can have a counter to 1 pet on a team -- that's the simple and easy part -- countering an *entire* team is the tricky bit. Roll out with MPD, Graves and Foss Hatch and good luck with your Ghostpup. Besides, um... you save Graves for the pocket. I suppose that's giving something away but -- his Grave Destruction hits for 668 on one pet if used on one. Yes, you can use it to spread AOE damage - and depending on your matchup you might choose to do that - but if someone is running a Ghostpup you wait.


I am 10 and 0 against the team u discribe. All of them are aoe abilities while I can solo two pets of that team with one pet while healing my team. the tero/kid combo deals with so much its incredible. the Pup is the best aoe counter I have found as long as they are using undead pets to do it. MPD is somewhat annoying but only because of decoy. But even then u take reduced damage from breath and can heal all the damage from the aoe.


Your strategy sounds fine. I personally can't stand using Kid or Hatchling. The Teroclaw Hatchling, is my opinion, is as powerful if not more powerful than Graves. The week Graves became available, I saw a brief shelving of Kids and Teroclaws in the NA meta and I was happier. I'd prefer a Graves meta without Kids and Teroclaws. The trick in PvP, of course, is accounting for for both contingencies without gimping yourself. Teroclaws are one reason I like flyers--those that are faster than the Teroclaw can be used to snipe the bird's health and bring it into that underpowered low hit point zone where it loses the racial passive. Yet as we've discussed, Graves/Aoe heavy undead teams are not friendly to flyers.

I've used a lot of Zomstrock since Graves release as it is decent against a Graves team (mitigation with armor and huge AoE with Carpnado) and as it is good against a Teroclaw that has assumed elemental form and has burned its dodge. Carpnado murders vulnerable Teroclaws.


I do think graves is not the issue, the issue is the way AOEs get better as you kill pets. A lot of these abilities get stronger as u defeat their pets. I think they need to be treated more like bonestorm. there are pet counters but the problem is your backline pets have taken like 700 damage before they even get to play in the game. When u combine the undead racial with multiple aoes I think u run into an issue that one pet can reduce the whole teams hp in half. Not good for the game imo.

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Postby Vevy » June 16th, 2015, 11:18 pm

Happygilmore wrote:the issue is the way AOEs get better as you kill pets. A lot of these abilities get stronger as u defeat their pets. I think they need to be treated more like bonestorm. there are pet counters but the problem is your backline pets have taken like 700 damage before they even get to play in the game. When u combine the undead racial with multiple aoes I think u run into an issue that one pet can reduce the whole teams hp in half. Not good for the game imo.


Well stated. My most winningest team post-Graves is a tri-AoE team. The damage happens so quickly that a lot of spells are rendered almost useless. I've been screwing around with wild magic teams but they take so long to ramp up that they don't stand much of a chance vs. double or triple AoE attacks.

When I am playing to have fun with black claw and wild magic, I'm auto-conceding against Murk/Graves and Graves/Brew Pup/Trunks style teams as I don't always enjoy fielding teams that try to counter what is increasingly seeming like a design flaw.

The addition of Lil' XT to the AoE machine (Grave, Lil' XT, Zomstrok, for instance) has thrown a wrench in my fox/critter defense as you need something other than flurry to take out Lil' XT before he repairs. I've never struggled with him before, but when I'm playing a team designed to deal with undead AoE, I have weaknesses--mechanical being one. I almost feel a Fragment of Anger is necessary for the high health, the potential stun, the AoE attack, and the ability to take out mechanical.

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Postby Happygilmore » June 17th, 2015, 7:42 am

Vevy wrote:
Happygilmore wrote:the issue is the way AOEs get better as you kill pets. A lot of these abilities get stronger as u defeat their pets. I think they need to be treated more like bonestorm. there are pet counters but the problem is your backline pets have taken like 700 damage before they even get to play in the game. When u combine the undead racial with multiple aoes I think u run into an issue that one pet can reduce the whole teams hp in half. Not good for the game imo.


Well stated. My most winningest team post-Graves is a tri-AoE team. The damage happens so quickly that a lot of spells are rendered almost useless. I've been screwing around with wild magic teams but they take so long to ramp up that they don't stand much of a chance vs. double or triple AoE attacks.

When I am playing to have fun with black claw and wild magic, I'm auto-conceding against Murk/Graves and Graves/Brew Pup/Trunks style teams as I don't always enjoy fielding teams that try to counter what is increasingly seeming like a design flaw.

The addition of Lil' XT to the AoE machine (Grave, Lil' XT, Zomstrok, for instance) has thrown a wrench in my fox/critter defense as you need something other than flurry to take out Lil' XT before he repairs. I've never struggled with him before, but when I'm playing a team designed to deal with undead AoE, I have weaknesses--mechanical being one. I almost feel a Fragment of Anger is necessary for the high health, the potential stun, the AoE attack, and the ability to take out mechanical.



Games like Pokmon don't have mechanics that effect backline pets for a reason. I think it would definitely have been too game breaking. On the flip side backline healing is possible but all of the healing abilities are drastically worse than the damage abilities. If the healing was a lump sum split over the team it would be better, but maybe too good.

On a side note i have a funny counter to inspiration/aoe combo, Lovebird Hatchling, Stun on the switch then pheromones or switch to counter. Stun in general is a good way to stop the bonus damage, however it still leaves you with a bunch of guys to kill.

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Postby Myon » June 17th, 2015, 7:51 am

Someone else, I forget who, mentioned the Slithershock Elver as a pretty effective pet as well, and it's aquatic to boot which is always welcome in this undead heavy metagame.

Open with Clobber and you will nail the RI'd pet - the beauty of this is that if they call your bluff and don't use RI, they're now stunned for turn 2 and you can follow up with Grasp to lock Murkalot in for good and shut down any RI > AoE shenanigans. There is no way for the Murkalot user to get around this, and it shuts down the turn 1: RI, turn 2: Bonestorm gameplan completely.

Of course it doesn't mean you now magically counter Murkalot/Graves teams or something (if they play on autopilot they will choke I suppose), it just means they have to think a little harder and be open to changing their gameplan a little. It's still going to be a slog, but that's just how it is against highly optimized teams.

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Re: Graves in PvP = he wrecks!

Postby Vevy » June 17th, 2015, 10:33 am

Happygilmore wrote:On a side note i have a funny counter to inspiration/aoe combo, Lovebird Hatchling, Stun on the switch then pheromones or switch to counter. Stun in general is a good way to stop the bonus damage, however it still leaves you with a bunch of guys to kill.


Interesting. Yea stuns have some upside in the current meta if you can shut down a big damage turn. The awkward thing about a stun is that it offers the AoE skills a round to cool down. Obviously in your example, you are doing it before Graves even casts so his cooldowns don't gain anything from it (worst case, Murk gets off a second Righteous Inspiration).

I only mention this because when I use Graves or Frag of Anger, I am usually happy if I can eke out one more AoE attack. For Graves, I feel successful if I manage two Bonestorms and one Grave Destruction. When I play against Graves, I am aiming to kill him before he has had a chance to case the second Bonestorm. So while a stun is an innovative way to address Murk/Graves openers, I am skeptical about the value of a stun once Graves has already initiated his first AoE cooldown.

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