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ever find that one team...?

Discuss pet battles, strategy and theorycrafting.
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Skavenged
 
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ever find that one team...?

Postby Skavenged » March 26th, 2015, 8:44 am

Have you ever built that one team that just seems to win... A LOT? That one team that is strong against a wide range of pet types, and actually counters all of its own counters?

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Awq
 
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Re: ever find that one team...?

Postby Awq » March 26th, 2015, 8:50 am

Not since the WoD patch/pets. My best team went 119-4-2.

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Myon
 
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Re: ever find that one team...?

Postby Myon » March 26th, 2015, 8:57 am

Before WoD came out, along with the nerfs to Haunt, it was Murkalot, Valk, Dread Hatchling for me. You can pretty much guess how it goes, RI-Haunt for 1400 damage into Consume Corpse stall, and then just use the pets sensibly once the initial Haunt is over, swapping as needed.

The Dread Hatchling was a much needed addition against the aquatics people like to run as insurance against undead. As such it had no significant counters I can remember running into, I think it had a 97-99% winrate against everyone in my battlegroup. I don't really remember losing.

Now with WoD out I've really taken a liking to the S/S Bronze Whelpling. Murkalot, Ghastly Kid, Bronze Whelpling was my go-to for the longest time, again with a RI-Haunt gameplan. It had a slightly lower winrate (95%'ish?) due to its weakness against mechanical heavy teams (Blessed Hammer and Arcane Slash both magic), but killed everything else just fine.

I wasn't satisfied though, so Fragment of Anger, Stunted Direhorn, Bronze Whelpling is the one I'm currently running. Well balanced team that's heavy on the AoE, not as reliant on a single big combo like RI-Haunt setups are. I have not lost a game in weeks, although that might be due to the influx of new battlers post 6.1, and I haven't run into any of my old rivals for a long time.

I like running brutally efficient teams and am always looking for that one perfect team. I'm not really a fan of that "I got countered, gotta make a counter team" mentality, a well built team should be able to fight even its worst 'counter' to a photo finish in my opinion.

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Skavenged
 
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Re: ever find that one team...?

Postby Skavenged » March 26th, 2015, 9:12 am

I built one earlier this month and hit 500 wins with it last night. 96% win rate. Most of my losses have come against the same guy (can tell because of pet names). I've gotta give him props. He was banging his head against the wall for a loooong time, but he never fled. He'd just make a change and come back again until he finally found a decent counter. Even now, its still a shootout when I face him.

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Re: ever find that one team...?

Postby Myon » March 26th, 2015, 9:31 am

I really enjoy running into the couple of people on my battlegroup that take it as seriously as I do. There's nothing that would make me happier than finding a team I can't pull out any wins against - if my team has a weakness, I want to know about it so I can keep tinkering :D

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Pettea
 
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Re: ever find that one team...?

Postby Pettea » March 26th, 2015, 9:38 am

Murkalot really could use a counterpart that doesn't cost your child's tuition and kidney.

I do feel that right now varied teams have a better chance, although some pets are still omnipresent to the point that it's always worth bringing a counter.

And even then they still tend to perform well.

For instance: your team needs a solution for the Mechanical Pandaren Dragonling's Decoy ability, or you're not going to have a fun time.

The Unborn Val'kyr is still pretty dominant as well, but since it's slow generally it just 'trades' with whatever you have it fight now. I don't think it's too much of a problem anymore, although clearly you still see it a lot - and a lot of other undead as well.

The final unfriendlies tend to be elementals such as Lil' Ragnaros and the Jademist Dancer.

Leaving us with my personal thoughts that that 'one team' - if it exists - is a team that can a) Remove Decoy and still do (any) damage that same turn. b) Put the hurt on Undead, preferably by dodging Haunt or killing the Haunter the turn it wants to Haunt, costing them the turn. Just hurting Undead a lot at a speed greater than 260 works, probably. And, c) Stop overpowered elementals. Can also be done with fast dodging moves, but it's usually better to stun them. Speed has to exceed 317 to be feasible though.

Pets I currently feel are the strongest in PvP (this doesn't mean you should play them and make PvP super boring, make fun teams, please):

Mechanical Pandaren Dragonling
Fragment of Anger
Teroclaw Hatchling
Jademist Dancer
Unborn Val'kyr
Murkalot... (I don't think this is okay since this guy is unobtainable, another pet needs to get a similar moveset)
Fiendish Imp

Son of Sethe (usually in combination with Dotting pets, something that does the Scorch weather heals incredible amounts from Son of Sethe, this one is more of a combination pet)

Beyond this, rabbits are obviously annoying to deal with, as well as moths (if they get lucky mostly). Rabbits just have very good matchups vs most things since they can dodge so much, but you can't blame people for running them since mechanical pandaran dragonlings have to be stopped :/

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Re: ever find that one team...?

Postby Skavenged » March 26th, 2015, 9:40 am

I have another guy that I face regularly. He tried for awhile to counter me, but apparently he gave up. Whenever I face him now, he just drags the fight out by waiting until the last second on turn-timer every single round

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Re: ever find that one team...?

Postby Awq » March 26th, 2015, 10:42 am

Pettea wrote:Pets I currently feel are the strongest in PvP (this doesn't mean you should play them and make PvP super boring, make fun teams, please):

Mechanical Pandaren Dragonling
Fragment of Anger
Teroclaw Hatchling

Jademist Dancer
Unborn Val'kyr
Murkalot... (I don't think this is okay since this guy is unobtainable, another pet needs to get a similar moveset)
Fiendish Imp

Those first three pets made me laugh!
It's a team that I run, because these pets cover each other weaknesses decently. So I was wondering if I fought you!

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Re: ever find that one team...?

Postby Jchertudi86 » March 26th, 2015, 12:25 pm

Pettea wrote:For instance: your team needs a solution for the Mechanical Pandaren Dragonling's Decoy ability, or you're not going to have a fun time.

The Unborn Val'kyr is still pretty dominant as well, but since it's slow generally it just 'trades' with whatever you have it fight now. I don't think it's too much of a problem anymore, although clearly you still see it a lot - and a lot of other undead as well.


Unborn Val'kyr doesn't make me feel like "oh crap I don't have a good counter" when I see it. The same cannot be said for the Mechanical Pandaren Dragonling, who is the most despicable pet in the game imo. It is just a ridiculously strong pet and I swear I see it in 40% of pvp pet battles, far more than any other single pet. I feel like unless you have a decent counter ready for it, he will often make a mockery of whatever team you are running. I am tired of feeling like I need to build teams around countering this one single pet.

For me anyway, no other pet comes close in terms of amount of use and difficulty in defeating.

The teams for me that have worked decently (although likely nothing over 70% win rate) are:
Yu'la, Iron Starlette, and Pygmy Cow
Teroclaw Hatchling, Blossoming Ancient, Hyjal Wisp (yeah sorry)
Iron Starlette, Iron Starlette, Iron Starlette (when I am fed up with losing to other people's stupid teams, I make my own)

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Skavenged
 
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Re: ever find that one team...?

Postby Skavenged » March 26th, 2015, 1:13 pm

MPD has tons of counters. IMHO the only OP pet in the game is still Murkalot! I don't think his move-set needs to be mimicked, it needs to be fixed. Falling Murloc does nearly the same damage as Ion Cannon, and yet Murk is only stunned one round while cannon users are stunned for two. To add insult to injury, Murk can be swapped out, while cannon users have to stay out front and take a beating. Righteous Inspiration is also broken. No problem giving the speed boost OR the damage increase, but both together is ridiculous

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Jchertudi86
 
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Re: ever find that one team...?

Postby Jchertudi86 » March 26th, 2015, 3:42 pm

But I see 30 battles with MPD before I see 1 battle with Murkalot. To me that's what is frustrating. Given Murkalot's power, he is rightfully rare.

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Myon
 
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Re: ever find that one team...?

Postby Myon » March 26th, 2015, 10:11 pm

Jchertudi86 wrote:But I see 30 battles with MPD before I see 1 battle with Murkalot. To me that's what is frustrating. Given Murkalot's power, he is rightfully rare.


I suspect it's because the pet battling community was already small to start with. When Murkalot was given out as a gift for Blizzcon (2, 3 years ago? I forget) it's likely there were no more than a handful of people per server who understood how powerful he was in our little niche minigame. Fast forward to today and that pool of people is very tiny indeed.

For the large influx of people we've gotten after the garrison menagerie nerfs in 6.1, I reckon it must be a bit of a bummer researching pet battles a little more deeply, only to find they'd missed the boat on Murkalot by a couple of years ;) Although that may be a blessing too, we would no doubt be swamped with Murkalot teams if he were as easy to pick up as Rags or a Blossoming Ancient.

For the record though, even as a Murkalot owner myself I don't find rarity or unobtainability to be a valid jusfication for overpoweredness. It impinges on the credibility of the battling system - and that our scene is so small is likely the only reason its been overlooked so far (I don't think Murkalot is that overpowered anyway). If there were some unobtainable vanilla item like Corrupted Ashbringer or something that was overpowered in current day raiding you can bet something would be done in a jiffy.

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Re: ever find that one team...?

Postby Donnamartin » March 26th, 2015, 10:35 pm

Hatespark should be way better for how rare he is :x

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Celya
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Re: ever find that one team...?

Postby Celya » March 27th, 2015, 1:01 am

Myon wrote:we would no doubt be swamped with Murkalot teams if he were as easy to pick up as Rags or a Blossoming Ancient.


^This.

Although I'm sad I missed out on him, I did realise he was going to be strong but I didn't want to spend that kind of RL money on a battle pet. That said, if they bring in another (easily obtainable) pet with Righteous Inspiration, it definitely needs to be tweaked a bit to be more in line with other moves.

On topic: I'm a masochist with severe ADHD and debilitating survivor's guilt complexes, if a team starts to win too often, I stop playing it. My own best-performing teams have all been variations on the Clonedance strategy.

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Re: ever find that one team...?

Postby Rafein » March 27th, 2015, 2:36 am

Been running bonkers/Nightshade Sproutling/ Mecha Panda Dragon.

Been very surprised with it as well. Nightshade hardcounters Unborn Valk, Blind, poison, Heal, and go sit on back row. When Haunt ends, Nightshade will still be at full health. Same vs. Murkalot, Blind right away, and if he inspirations, his new pet will have a nice 100% miss chance.

Only problem can be Anub with Sandstorm, but I find Bonkers can usually drop Anub in a straight up fight, and I have enough defense to stall out sandstorm afterwards.

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Re: ever find that one team...?

Postby Pettea » March 27th, 2015, 4:04 am

Awq wrote:Those first three pets made me laugh!
It's a team that I run, because these pets cover each other weaknesses decently. So I was wondering if I fought you!


I play in whatever battlegroup Kazzak-EU is located.


Jchertudi86 wrote:Unborn Val'kyr doesn't make me feel like "oh crap I don't have a good counter" when I see it. The same cannot be said for the Mechanical Pandaren Dragonling, who is the most despicable pet in the game imo. It is just a ridiculously strong pet and I swear I see it in 40% of pvp pet battles, far more than any other single pet. I feel like unless you have a decent counter ready for it, he will often make a mockery of whatever team you are running. I am tired of feeling like I need to build teams around countering this one single pet.

For me anyway, no other pet comes close in terms of amount of use and difficulty in defeating.

The teams for me that have worked decently (although likely nothing over 70% win rate) are:
Yu'la, Iron Starlette, and Pygmy Cow
Teroclaw Hatchling, Blossoming Ancient, Hyjal Wisp (yeah sorry)
Iron Starlette, Iron Starlette, Iron Starlette (when I am fed up with losing to other people's stupid teams, I make my own)


Which is why I think the Unborn isn't as huge of a problem anymore. Obviously it still rapes lower speed pets, but it's very predictable and even if you don't build to stop it, you should probably be able to.

As for the dragonling, perhaps a new pet needs to be designed with an ability that makes objects on the battlefield explode, dealing Power damage for each object to its owner. To propose a random potential solution. I don't think the Dragonling needs to be nerfed per se. I think it is a fairly balanced pet overall, it's abilities are simply toxic in PvP. Massive damage output - to the backline if it's still there, free swap. And it's fairly fast so it can do it many times.

It'd feel mighty good to blow up those Decoys into people's faces.

Or maybe an ability that steals objects :P Or an actual reflective shield.

That said, I already did post a list of abilities that 'counter' Decoy. Maybe we're just not inventive enough. But I do feel I have to run something to stop the Dragonling. Basically it might be fine if it just wasn't there almost every battle (so if there was a good counter against it, that's overall not strong, it might be forced a bit out of the queue, leading to a healthier scene overall)

(Swarm-type abilities
Rain-type abilities (such as Blingtron's Make It Rain)
Spiderling Swarm
Flurry
Call the Pack)



Donnamartin wrote:Hatespark should be way better for how rare he is :x


I find Hatespark to be in a good spot. It's extremely strong when combined with other pets, and good on its own. (And god yes, it should have dropped more often than it did, it's too expensive)


Celya wrote:
Myon wrote:My own best-performing teams have all been variations on the Clonedance strategy.


That may have something to do with a Raindanced-Cyclone doing best-damage-tier-damage. And that pets such as Jademist Dancer, who you probably play in all those teams, are amongst the strongest pets currently in the game - Jademist Dancer may be in the top 5 strongest pets available right now. Probably top 3.

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Re: ever find that one team...?

Postby Pettea » March 27th, 2015, 4:25 am

Pettea wrote:
Awq wrote:Those first three pets made me laugh!
It's a team that I run, because these pets cover each other weaknesses decently. So I was wondering if I fought you!


I play in whatever battlegroup Kazzak-EU is located.


Jchertudi86 wrote:Unborn Val'kyr doesn't make me feel like "oh crap I don't have a good counter" when I see it. The same cannot be said for the Mechanical Pandaren Dragonling, who is the most despicable pet in the game imo. It is just a ridiculously strong pet and I swear I see it in 40% of pvp pet battles, far more than any other single pet. I feel like unless you have a decent counter ready for it, he will often make a mockery of whatever team you are running. I am tired of feeling like I need to build teams around countering this one single pet.

For me anyway, no other pet comes close in terms of amount of use and difficulty in defeating.

The teams for me that have worked decently (although likely nothing over 70% win rate) are:
Yu'la, Iron Starlette, and Pygmy Cow
Teroclaw Hatchling, Blossoming Ancient, Hyjal Wisp (yeah sorry)
Iron Starlette, Iron Starlette, Iron Starlette (when I am fed up with losing to other people's stupid teams, I make my own)


Which is why I think the Unborn isn't as huge of a problem anymore. Obviously it still rapes lower speed pets, but it's very predictable and even if you don't build to stop it, you should probably be able to.

As for the dragonling, perhaps a new pet needs to be designed with an ability that makes objects on the battlefield explode, dealing Power damage for each object to its owner. To propose a random potential solution. I don't think the Dragonling needs to be nerfed per se. I think it is a fairly balanced pet overall, it's abilities are simply toxic in PvP. Massive damage output - to the backline if it's still there, free swap. And it's fairly fast so it can do it many times.

It'd feel mighty good to blow up those Decoys into people's faces.

Or maybe an ability that steals objects :P Or an actual reflective shield.

That said, I already did post a list of abilities that 'counter' Decoy. Maybe we're just not inventive enough. But I do feel I have to run something to stop the Dragonling. Basically it might be fine if it just wasn't there almost every battle (so if there was a good counter against it, that's overall not strong, it might be forced a bit out of the queue, leading to a healthier scene overall)

(Swarm-type abilities
Rain-type abilities (such as Blingtron's Make It Rain)
Spiderling Swarm
Flurry
Call the Pack)



Donnamartin wrote:Hatespark should be way better for how rare he is :x


I find Hatespark to be in a good spot. It's extremely strong when combined with other pets, and good on its own. (And god yes, it should have dropped more often than it did, it's too expensive)


Celya wrote:
Myon wrote:My own best-performing teams have all been variations on the Clonedance strategy.


That may have something to do with a Raindanced-Cyclone doing best-damage-tier-damage. And that pets such as Jademist Dancer, who you probably play in all those teams, are amongst the strongest pets currently in the game - Jademist Dancer may be in the top 5 strongest pets available right now. Probably top 3.


Rafein wrote:Been running bonkers/Nightshade Sproutling/ Mecha Panda Dragon.

Been very surprised with it as well. Nightshade hardcounters Unborn Valk, Blind, poison, Heal, and go sit on back row. When Haunt ends, Nightshade will still be at full health. Same vs. Murkalot, Blind right away, and if he inspirations, his new pet will have a nice 100% miss chance.

Only problem can be Anub with Sandstorm, but I find Bonkers can usually drop Anub in a straight up fight, and I have enough defense to stall out sandstorm afterwards.


I'm loving my fast sproutling as well. But I wouldn't say it hard-counters the Val'kyr. Valkyrs have a huge healthpool and it won't do a lot of damage to it. The Valkyr can trade with the sproutling one-on-one. Although I admit I never run heal on my sproutling (does it have heal? :P ) I run Call Darkness instead because it molests annoying pets such as Son of Sethe and Mana Surging Dragons. Maybe it counters Val'kyrs better with heal.

You should include the breeds of some of the pests you promote though. I might be able to see a P/P bonkers rape through an anubisath (powerful Bonkers does crazy damage). In my battlegroup you don't really see anubisaths anymore anyway.

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Re: ever find that one team...?

Postby Myon » March 27th, 2015, 4:36 am

I feel like most people overrate Decoy.

Used by itself in normal conditions, it generates 1 turn's worth of advantage for you. Consider this example exchange,

Turn 1: MPD uses Decoy, opponent's pet attacks, knocks off one charge
Turn 2: MPD attacks, opponent's pet attacks, knocks off the second charge
Turn 3: MPD and opponent's pet can both attack each other again

So the MPD user has come out ahead by 1 turn's worth of actions as it has gotten in 1 free shot at the opponent behind the Decoy on Turn 2. This isn't too different from moves like Dodge or Crystal Prison that generate 1 turn of advantage.

Turn 1: You use Dodge, opponent's pet misses
Turn 2: You attack, opponent's pet misses again
Turn 3: You can both attack each other again

The difference is it does not become weaker if your MPD is slower than your opponent's pet and goes second, as there will always be 2 charges there to be knocked off. As a balancing factor, it has a 8 round cooldown (compared to 3-5 rounds for most evasion moves) and is subject to environment clearing abilities and multiple hit attacks. It doesn't strike me as a move that is particularly overtuned.

The main reason the MPD is so strong is because it has Decoy and Thunderbolt and is mechanical (giving it more longevity which can buy it time to get a crucial additional Decoy or Thunderbolt off before dying), and it has a decent stat spread. It's these combination of factors that make it a powerhouse, you don't see people complaining about the Mechanical Frostboar or other pets with Decoy since their toolkit isn't as complementary.

The key to dealing with the MPD is to recognize that, like Lil'Rag, it's a pet that you really want to take out of the picture as quick as possible, your gameplan should be to unload as much damage onto it while you can, instead of doing things like swapping or setting up long term strategy. If you dilly dally and let it sit in front pumping out Thunderbolts or even a second Decoy, that's what will put you behind.

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Re: ever find that one team...?

Postby Vek » March 27th, 2015, 8:28 am

I believe that Thunderbolt being slightly overtuned and that it uses the split by no. of pets mechanic is the main issue of the MPD. If the MPD is the last pet standing it is quite fast, 309, and can still hit for 600. This is not much below Ion Cannon finisher for example, like Skavenged said in his example above with Falling Murloc, but thunderbolt does not stun at all and is on a faster cooldown.

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Re: ever find that one team...?

Postby Myon » March 27th, 2015, 8:44 am

Yes, Thunderbolt getting the split damage treatment was a massive buff for the MPD. It used to have a big problem closing out games with its piddly Breath and the old Thunderbolt that would only do 197 to a single pet. Being able to drop a 600 damage nuke makes a big difference and gave it much more flexibility.

Real pity about having Breath as its slot one move though (or a relief ;) ) If it had something more useful like Claw that perfectly covers Thunderbolt's weakness against Critters, it would be a candidate for strongest pet in the metagame in my opinion.

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