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The future and direction of pet battling in WOW

Discuss pet battles, strategy and theorycrafting.
3wd
 
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The future and direction of pet battling in WOW

Postby 3wd » February 25th, 2015, 11:16 am

is not looking so well.

In 6.1, Blizz finally realized the issue and made changes.

The real issue is : Pet battling is so different than the game content.

For the normal game content progression, lets face the facts, what attracts players more is always the gears.

You can make whatever godlike gears you worn in 60-70-80-85-90 become junks, so that it will give players incentive to play the new content and also rebalance the scale.

It is different in Pet Battle.

For a large part of pet battle, it starts with collection.

You can not destroy completely the pet collectors' efforts, especially lots of them were purchased by real money.

So the issue will be : once you progress further, it will be even more difficult to balance the scale. It just can't.

They tried.

By creating OP new pets to attract you to play, to find them.

But then again, the issue is - they still can not get the late, new player to join this content.

Until they tried to force this as part of the garrison and they finally realized : its not working because the gap is so huge.

Hence came the huge nerf.

They are not going to wipe out your collection, because they can not do that as I mentioned above.

But instead, they wipe out the purpose of doing any pet battles now.

There are no challenge anymore, not even close anyway. They want more new players to try this content, they want them to start like we started couple years ago, but for now, if you started 2 years ago, you have nothing left to do.

Pet battle will be like archeology, its not looking well at all.

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Talalara
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Re: The future and direction of pet battling in WOW

Postby Talalara » February 25th, 2015, 12:14 pm

I agree but sadly and as I have said before I have invested too much in this part of the game to just do nothing.

Been in it too long to not find a way to keep it fresh for me.

I believe it is an individual thing. From my point of view it seems the only time anything gets changed in game is when a few either complain or praise something too much.

If something is overpower or too easy then this is the very next thing which gets a change or downgrade.

I still do not understand why nerfing the garrison menagerie was a good idea. If it were not for learning how to finally utilize those dailys I would not have even continued doing any leveling. The old grinding spots were super camped even in low pop servers. The pet masters hardly ever dropped enough bandages or special treats for healing or leveling. Those thing made it worthwhile to go in the field. The rewards from the menagerie are wonderful but purchasing those expensive yet needed items was nuts.

Pet collecting & leveling was a sweet treat because for someone like me who is either not geared well enough or not experienced enough, doing LFR is the only way to fill the time. With the long wait times then pet collecting & leveling at the garrison menagerie was a way to fill the time with something very satisfying...... *sigh*

I am sure the programmers at Blizz do not consider my pet collecting obsession paramount in their consideration when it comes time to make changes or improvements. Like anything else in life & WoW life it is what you make of it that matters. It may be boring to some or not challenging to others.

I will find a way to carry on. Not trying to be a matyr *lol* just trying to keep collecting.....

Carrying On

Tala

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Skavenged
 
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Re: The future and direction of pet battling in WOW

Postby Skavenged » February 25th, 2015, 1:59 pm

I've been doing pet battles since the beginning. I was never a big collector before then, so obviously I had plenty to do just to get a decent collection together. Once the collection was ready, I moved on into leveling all of them. Again, it kept me busy for a loooong time. After I had enough pets leveled, I started on all the world tamers, which took ages before I found truly viable strategies to beat them. Then came the tournament, which gave me fits but was tons of fun.

Along the way, I also stepped into PvP, and in my opionon, THIS is where it's at. PvP is the part that is meant to keep us interested and involved. Some people don't like PvP in the regular game. It takes alot of skill, quick thinking, and fast fingers. For some people, that's just not the way they play, and so they avoid it. By default, I think a lot of people also assume that pet PvP is the same way, but it isn't. Pet PvP is more like a timed chess match. Sure you have to think it out, but you don't need lightning responses to win.

The daunting part for new players is that PvP pits them against those of us that have been at it for ages. We know what pets are gonna do. As soon as we see our opponent, we have some idea what to expect, and we game plan against it. New players don't have that advantage... and so they lose... a LOT... and then they come here, or to Wowhead looking for that unbeatable team. Well we all know the unbeatable team doesn't exist. We learn because we lose and adjust to our losses. We watch what others are doing.

In the end, I think the biggest problem for new players is the overabundance of info out there. In the old days, if we found a tough tamer (Major Payne anyone?), we had to figure it out for ourselves. We took our lumps, and kept plugging away until we had a solid strategy, and as an added bonus, we learned alot about our pets and abilities. Nowadays, people get stuck, run to wowhead for a solution, and then move on. They aren't actually taking the time to learn from their own mistakes. I don't have a problem with the recent XP nerf to garrison fights. In fact, I think they've done an excellent job lately at creating parity between pets. I don't see those crazy OP teams anymore like the DAH teams, or crow teams, or Fluxfire teams. I see a really nice mix in PvP. Bottom line, the longer it takes to level your pets, the more you're gonna learn. The more you learn, the better you can adjust to challenges. The better you become at adjusting, the better you're going to be in pet PvP, and that is the REAL challenge that doesn't get old.

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Melfice
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Re: The future and direction of pet battling in WOW

Postby Melfice » February 25th, 2015, 2:45 pm

I agree with Skavenged 100%! To me, PvE content of the Pet Battle system is to get more pets (from rewards), and level up your collection to lv 25. The REAL Pet Battle content is PvP in my eyes, and I really enjoy it a lot! I love battling against other players, and it keeps me playing WoW for the most part.

But, I do not like the PvE content being too easy, and not a challenge tho. It's a lot of fun working on nice pet rewards, like the Celestial Tournament etc. I don't want content like that being a cake walk, and it should require effort. Even tho once you figure out the fight, it's no longer a challenge.

Just like Skavenged, I started with the Pet Battle system from day one, and I have had a blast so far. PvP is where it's at, and it will keep me busy for a while time. The rest of WoW's content I don't even really play anymore, but Pet Battles keep me logging on tho

Pet PvP is more like a timed chess match. Sure you have to think it out, but you don't need lightning responses to win.


I can't agree anymore with this statement! So true, so true indeed :)

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Morlis
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Re: The future and direction of pet battling in WOW

Postby Morlis » February 25th, 2015, 4:01 pm

I am one of those that doesn't like Player PVP, I like to blame my left handedness for my lack of skill, but the real truth is even when I completely remap keys to left hand mouse use, I still totally suck at it. I have also tried Pet PvP and I really don't care for that either. Totally not fun to spend 2 hours to get 10 wins (and the really sad thing is a got a few wins from people who fled). SOLID waste of time in my opinion. I am at 30/250 to get the direhorn and believe that is an achievement I may never achieve.

For me the point of pets was never about the battles, either PVP or PVE. I am a collector, I collect pets, rarify them, and then level them. I am not in competition to be the #1 pet collector, I never see myself there. I just don't have a few key ones that I can never get or would be willing to shell out thousands of dollars to get. I enjoy the challenge of getting the best collection that I can achieve. If Blizzard stops adding new pets then I would grow bored of it, but I just don't see that happening till they shut off servers for good.

I hardly ever pet battle just for fun, there is always a purpose to my battling. Either I want to capture a new pet or level a current pet. 2000 Dranor pet battles is kind of iffy for me, I may never see that either. I generally don't use wild pets to do my leveling. Tamers is where I leveled most of my collection. I did level about 80 in the Menagerie battles. (bummed that got nerfed, but I can see why)
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Desi
 
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Re: The future and direction of pet battling in WOW

Postby Desi » February 25th, 2015, 4:09 pm

Today's 'bird day' was really pathetic. I one shot all the birds with 1 mana surge from the Nexus Whelpling and didnt even need heal afterwards.

The garrison pet daily is just another daily chore now.

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Re: The future and direction of pet battling in WOW

Postby Tekulve2012 » February 25th, 2015, 7:01 pm

I like many aspects of battlepets in WoW

I like the collecting, leveling, all the terrific artwork and variety.

I have just short of 2k wins in pet PvP but the fun for me is to use different pets and to try to eke out wins with lesser used pets

I like promoting this aspect of WoW by helping out new fans of the minigame with free pets, stoning upgrades and advice

I enjoy chatting pet pvp with creative thinkers ..I make gold by finding pet bargains and selling pets too...I'm quite happy with the past, present and I have hope for the future of battlepets.

People have stated here that they would quit if pet levels went to 30... I know it would be a chore but I'd be up for the challenge if it was a way to make the game interesting...I know this viewpoint is vehemently opposed by the majority of players

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Drudatz
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Re: The future and direction of pet battling in WOW

Postby Drudatz » February 25th, 2015, 8:34 pm

Yes in the long run there will be nothing left to do cause players have shown blizzard no matter what they come up with
theres allways one guy who is smarter and puts it on wowhead, so yes pet battles gonna be an even smaller niche as archeology.

-> Ive done the 5k pvp achivement (twice), ive done 1695/2000 battles in pvp for the monument and to be honest
the only reason to do it now left is to level chars cause you get nice xp for it. if my opponent doesnt forfit after
Ive beat him 5 times allready in the 1st round :D

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Re: The future and direction of pet battling in WOW

Postby 3wd » February 26th, 2015, 10:54 am

Its not just about whether its PVE or PVP.

Its about how this part of the content being designed.

The issue is : the content is being too scripted.

When things become more predictable without any challenge, there is no fun left.

I still strongly believe getting rid of hit rate is not a good move for PVP, but oh well.

To resolve this issue or improve the current situation, Blizz probably need to consider to re-design the pet combat format.

Lets say :

1. Instead of a 3 skills pool set, make it a 6 skills pool set which give more options - at least on PVE (I think this is one of the idea in 6.1 PVE fights).
2. Harder content with better reward - if Garrison quest can give player's gears, then very hard pet quests should do the same.
3. More crazy idea : instead of only limit to the front pet can use skill in a round, make it all 3 pets (whether in front or back) can be choosen to use skills, just give a harder penalty for the back pets to use skill - say half damage, half effect on the buff / healing ect and can not affect the opponent's back pets.

Just ask players to farm some meaningless old content for "new pets" is not the solution for pet battling in WOW.

Improve the way we play pet battling and that will be the only way to let it survive.

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Re: The future and direction of pet battling in WOW

Postby Quintessence » February 26th, 2015, 12:16 pm

3wd wrote:Just ask players to farm some meaningless old content for "new pets" is not the solution for pet battling in WOW.


I wouldn't say that RWL3 was their "solution" to anything. As with all aspects of this game, there are different ways to approach it. Some prefer to collect over battling, while others prefer battling over collecting. Developers are taking that into consideration, and it seems as though 6.1 is more for the collector than battler.

The new trainer and the Menagerie nerfs were intended to open up Pet Battles to a wider audience. I don't think it's in any way a jab at the battling community or an indication that they won't be implementing more/newer/"harder" content in the future. This is only just the first content patch of WoD after all.
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Taerie
 
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Re: The future and direction of pet battling in WOW

Postby Taerie » February 26th, 2015, 12:58 pm

3wd wrote:
But instead, they wipe out the purpose of doing any pet battles now.

There are no challenge anymore, not even close anyway. They want more new players to try this content, they want them to start like we started couple years ago, but for now, if you started 2 years ago, you have nothing left to do.

Pet battle will be like archeology, its not looking well at all.


I agree with some of this; I was definitely surprised by the face roll of the traveling tamer. When I fought her this morning she whipped out a grey level pet- really? What's the point of that? When in your pet battling career did anyone start out fighting a tamer with a poor quality pet? It doesn't make sense if they're trying to ease people into it that way.

I'd welcome a new challenge at this point; a new tournament would be great!

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Darkchyld
 
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Re: The future and direction of pet battling in WOW

Postby Darkchyld » February 26th, 2015, 2:56 pm

It's to make the point of entry easy. If people are starting out using their first stone for their first 25, it's good to have an easy trainer with good rewards to fight. If I didn't know the info I know now and starting out, I'd probably have a small challenge in defeating the traveling tamer with one good 25 and next to no knowledge of pet battling. The rewards are also great as it helps them start leveling their collection a bit faster. And for us veteran players, we could always use the level up stones and they gave a chance at new pets.

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Melfice
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Re: The future and direction of pet battling in WOW

Postby Melfice » February 26th, 2015, 2:58 pm

Darkchyld wrote:It's to make the point of entry easy. If people are starting out using their first stone for their first 25, it's good to have an easy trainer with good rewards to fight. If I didn't know the info I know now and starting out, I'd probably have a small challenge in defeating the traveling tamer with one good 25 and next to no knowledge of pet battling. The rewards are also great as it helps them start leveling their collection a bit faster. And for us veteran players, we could always use the level up stones and they gave a chance at new pets.


I think the stone should be a monthly quest. One time use is really not all that great in my eyes.

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Re: The future and direction of pet battling in WOW

Postby Peanutty » February 26th, 2015, 3:00 pm

Quintessence wrote:The new trainer and the Menagerie nerfs were intended to open up Pet Battles to a wider audience. I don't think it's in any way a jab at the battling community or an indication that they won't be implementing more/newer/"harder" content in the future. This is only just the first content patch of WoD after all.


^ This. Trying to make pet battles too hard or exclusive only drives away the larger, more casual population of players. That is not good for the future of pet battling. A LOT of casual pet battlers - which are the majority of pet battlers out there - were having problems even opening up their menagerie without help. That's not how pet battling should work and so I think "dumbing down" the opening menagerie quests was a good move.

Think of it this way... if a Mythic 9/10 BRF guild said, "This raid is far too easy, it's not a challenge," I think most players would have to disagree with their assessment. For that small elite group, maybe that raid really is too easy. For everyone else, it's still a challenge, even on easier modes.

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Re: The future and direction of pet battling in WOW

Postby Kpb321 » February 26th, 2015, 3:21 pm

I'm not sure what the answer is for PvE Pet Battling.

Making the fights harder by giving the NPC's higher quality pets or giving them special abilities or buffs just means you need a better counter team to beat them and some of the buffs, like the generic 50% damage reduction, just meant certain other abilities were more powerful. I liked the variety of the new buffs for the Menagerie fights but it ultimately didn't do much. If you need to have a specific counter team then it means your Pet Battling progression is all about collecting and they have to be very careful about pet accessibility and balance for Store/TCG/Blizzcon/CE pets becomes even more important. It also makes things really hard on new comers because not only do they need to get the right pets but they also have to level them.

The tried the can't heal with the CT which did add some challenged but was also a big source of frustration for people. Again it tends to emphasize the collecting side of things while battling. It was easier to build teams and cover a random loss to bad luck with a larger stable of pets.

You could try to improve the AI for the PvE teams and that would help but so far they seem to be either random or pretty scripted and even an improved AI could end up being predictable. I don't know that adding randomness for the pets abilities or quality really makes sense either. That just makes things frustrating because you can easily beat something one time and then get clobbered the next time.

I'm really not sure how to emulate the gradual improvement and regular "reset" that you see in something like Raiding in WoW with your gear and execution steadily improving making the boss easier and then the next raid or expansion comes out and your are starting that climb all over. Leveling is currently far to time consuming for all your pets to be regularly adding levels and just power creeping the pets means again that collecting is the key for battle.

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Re: The future and direction of pet battling in WOW

Postby Kpb321 » February 26th, 2015, 3:24 pm

Peanutty wrote:
Quintessence wrote:The new trainer and the Menagerie nerfs were intended to open up Pet Battles to a wider audience. I don't think it's in any way a jab at the battling community or an indication that they won't be implementing more/newer/"harder" content in the future. This is only just the first content patch of WoD after all.


^ This. Trying to make pet battles too hard or exclusive only drives away the larger, more casual population of players. That is not good for the future of pet battling. A LOT of casual pet battlers - which are the majority of pet battlers out there - were having problems even opening up their menagerie without help. That's not how pet battling should work and so I think "dumbing down" the opening menagerie quests was a good move.

Think of it this way... if a Mythic 9/10 BRF guild said, "This raid is far too easy, it's not a challenge," I think most players would have to disagree with their assessment. For that small elite group, maybe that raid really is too easy. For everyone else, it's still a challenge, even on easier modes.


I don't mind making things more accessible but I still want stuff that is challenging enough that I can feel like I accomplished something when I beat it. Maybe they could do something like heroics or raid difficulty that adjusted the quality of their pets. Starts off with them as rares and then improves them to epic and legendary. I'm just not sure what the improved rewards would be for doing the harder versions.

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Re: The future and direction of pet battling in WOW

Postby Peanutty » February 26th, 2015, 4:14 pm

I guess I must be in the minority because I like the predictability of PVE encounters. I find it very relaxing to go on auto pilot, fly around to the the Pandaria tamers, and complete my round of dailies. For those same reasons I don't like PVP at all, as I can't predict my opponent's moves and it's very stressful and not at all enjoyable to me.

The "challenge" for me is to simply collect as many pets as I can. Optimizing levels, rarity and breeds makes it easier to continue to collect more. It's a vicious cycle. :)

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Re: The future and direction of pet battling in WOW

Postby Riddley » February 26th, 2015, 4:35 pm

I think I've had a good idea.

Replace the existing quest with a choice of an Easy, Normal, Heroic, Mythic quest. Using a sub-25 pet automatically puts you at Normal and provides some decent XP. Heck maybe you can even endlessly repeat the battle for good XP upon completing Heroic and/or Mythic.

Best of all worlds. Levelers get their leveling fix. Casuals get their bag/stones. Abnegators ("I like the predictability") can play on Normal and have a predictable encounter. Those seeking a challenge can do heroic/mythic.

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Drudatz
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Re: The future and direction of pet battling in WOW

Postby Drudatz » February 26th, 2015, 4:56 pm

Melfice wrote:I think the stone should be a monthly quest. One time use is really not all that great in my eyes.
Please no - for that you have alts. Besides if you got some pets you can easily farm the menagerie for Pet Charms to buy leveling stones.

Peanutty wrote:For those same reasons I don't like PVP at all, as I can't predict my opponent's moves and it's very stressful and not at all enjoyable to me.
Ofc you cant predict it at first but with time going by you can - your opponent has a crow out? you can be sure he will do darkness and nocturnal strike. He has 3 Nexus Drake? Hope you got something to change the weather etc. Its like in life - by experience you learn - ofc you will loose some but over time you'll also win some.
People always say "uh pvp pet battles are so complicated" but in truth they are not. Your opponent has only 5 choices: passing, switching to another pet or 3 pet abilities. you only have to learn by experience wich these 3 abilities are and you can start countering it. For example its total easily possible to kill an Anubis Idol with Crush, Sandstorm and Shield with a Magical Crawdad with Rush, Healing and Power Healing (yes I dunno the names of the abilities shame on me! my excuse is I am old :))


Quintessence wrote:This is only just the first content patch of WoD after all.
That made me laugh :D
Last edited by Drudatz on February 26th, 2015, 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The future and direction of pet battling in WOW

Postby Adumbledore » February 26th, 2015, 4:59 pm

Peanutty wrote:I guess I must be in the minority because I like the predictability of PVE encounters. I find it very relaxing to go on auto pilot, fly around to the the Pandaria tamers, and complete my round of dailies. For those same reasons I don't like PVP at all, as I can't predict my opponent's moves and it's very stressful and not at all enjoyable to me.

The "challenge" for me is to simply collect as many pets as I can. Optimizing levels, rarity and breeds makes it easier to continue to collect more. It's a vicious cycle. :)


I agree 100%. So I must be in the minority too. lol

Riddley wrote:I think I've had a good idea.

Replace the existing quest with a choice of an Easy, Normal, Heroic, Mythic quest. Using a sub-25 pet automatically puts you at Normal and provides some decent XP. Heck maybe you can even endlessly repeat the battle for good XP upon completing Heroic and/or Mythic.

Best of all worlds. Levelers get their leveling fix. Casuals get their bag/stones. Abnegators ("I like the predictability") can play on Normal and have a predictable encounter. Those seeking a challenge can do heroic/mythic.


That's an interesting idea. I would assume that Easy = Uncommon pets, Normal = Rare pets, Heroic = Epic pets, and Mythic = Legendary pets?
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