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6.0.2 First impressions

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Vek
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6.0.2 First impressions

Postby Vek » October 17th, 2014, 6:38 am

So been pvp battling a couple of days now. I was never in the "remove misses" corner but now that they are gone I don't really miss them. It is very nice to know that your Wind-Up/Touch of the Animus/Burrow/Lift-Off or whatever is actually going to hit(barring hit modifiers like blind/sandstorm/darkness), feels more dependable.

I do get the feeling that I get a lot of "low" hits, making individual attacks feel slightly weaker. But this is probably just the same feeling we had before that "this attack always misses". While you don't get the same 0 damage done feel as when the attack missed sometimes it is still a bit annoying. Like when you were sure that this attack would bring the flying pet below 50% but you hit low so it is still above 50%. Or when you attack with a dragon and also hope to get the opposing pet below 50% so your racial will kick in, but once again you hit low and your opponent is left just above 50%. Since you still do damage it is not as annoying as a miss, I guess.

One thing I noticed because of these "low" hits is that when you do get a crit the numbers go through the roof(since crits always hit in the high end damage spectrum). This is of course just a relative feeling I get but it got me thinking. This is actually a very nice buff to +crit moves(Hawk Eye gasp!). I have not yet tried this out, but critting will avoid the low spectrum so +crit moves are also a damage bonus of sorts. While Hawk Eye still might not be the best ability since most pets with Hawk Eye have low damage variance moves like(slicing wind/thrash etc) it would still be a great buff to Lift-Off, or Qiraji Guardling(Crush), Bats perhaps(with Reckless Strike).

Has anyone tried out the new Focus. Seems like a really great buff to Flayer Youngling for example.

Other than this. Death Adders are much more manageable, but can still prove dangerous just not as powerful as before. MPD still annoying and even more dangerous one-on-one in end game. Valks, well there is that other thread about that so...

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Postby Vek » October 17th, 2014, 7:05 am

I can now tell you that Hawk Eye on the Guardling is indeed very sweet. But then if you still don't crit you will hit for like 200 with crush(depending on breed), lol.

And with the Poison Fang nerf it will not hit through Spirit Spikes anymore. So your Vengeful Porcupette won't deal any damage and will not get poisoned. Of course when beast racial is up or different more powerful breeds can make it different.

Since I do love my Vengeful Porcupette still. I also like that my opponents attacks are sure to hit. It was always so annoying when you cast Spirit Spikes and the opposing Burrow/Dive/Lift-Off/Crush actually missed instead and spirit spikes was all for nothing that turn.

I also get the feeling that P/P Nexus Whelping is much more solid now that Mana Surge is sure to hit and that Arcane Storm has been buffed to Avalanche AoE status(though less damage). With dragonkin racial things goes down fast(like before but without 80% hit chance).

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Postby Awq » October 17th, 2014, 7:43 am

I am unsure about the hit system.
On the one hand I really miss misses. The current system feels a lot more random and thus less skillful than the previous hit system. One can not calculate the opponents damage that easily, which makes your cool down usage a lot more random.
It feels like a mini-crit, and crits always had a bigger impact on the outcome of my matches than misses. It is like I predicted.

However, the average damage of 80%-90% has been lowered. This makes the game slower, which I really like. I might be able to use 5.2 teams again, teams that weren't viable after the previous hit rating change. I am looking forward to testing this! So while I consider the new system worse my game play might improve, because of lower average damage.

I haven't used many pets. I have tried three of my old teams, to see how strong they are. They still work, although one is less efficient. The Valk team that I tried was the strongest. The meta feels faster with the new pets, mid-speed control pets will be weaker.

I've fought the new pets, I like their flavors. Iron Scarlette has high burst, but has a long set-up time and is weak against avoidance. Bronze Whelpling has good control, but it lacks defense. Sky-Bo will be the fastest decoy user, but it has a weak slot 1.

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Postby Jerebear » October 17th, 2014, 8:44 am

Something that may not appear intuitive and some may not realize:

HIt buffs/debuffs in addition to changing the hit % of an ability affect how often high vs low occurs. By default, you have a 50% chance to hit low and a 50% chance to hit high. If someone casts darkness, you get a 60% chance to hit low and a 40% chance to hit high and a 10% chance to miss altogether.

Conversely, if you cast Raindance, you have a 0% chance to hit low and a 100% chance to hit high and a 150% chance to hit at all (important for countering hit debuffs).
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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Postby Luciandk » October 17th, 2014, 9:13 am

I think the weak slot 1 is really what which holds the S/S sky-bo back from effective use. But a P/P can deliver a decent rash of delayed damage, though otherwise nothing special.

Bronze whelpling was the suprise pet of 6.02 for me, a true control style pet. Yes, it shines in pvp, but I also found it to be brutally effective when leveling carry pets on lower trainers where exact counterpets is less important.

Iron Starlette, powerful, but taking time to set up its omg nuke of DOOM! Still debating the most useful breed. But it certainly shines on removing high hp legendary non-boss pets.

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Postby Vek » October 17th, 2014, 9:31 am

Jerebear wrote:Something that may not appear intuitive and some may not realize:

HIt buffs/debuffs in addition to changing the hit % of an ability affect how often high vs low occurs. By default, you have a 50% chance to hit low and a 50% chance to hit high. If someone casts darkness, you get a 60% chance to hit low and a 40% chance to hit high and a 10% chance to miss altogether.

Conversely, if you cast Raindance, you have a 0% chance to hit low and a 100% chance to hit high and a 150% chance to hit at all (important for countering hit debuffs).


Yes this is quite important. You actually get doubly screwed by hit-debuffs.
Autumn Breeze/Inebriate/Stench has gotten a nice buff with both -25% to hit and 75% chance at your opponent hitting the low end. This is team wide. These were quite annoying before, but not very popular thankfully. Guess we will see more of them.

Flash/Lens Flare actually kind of needed the buff since if you didn't miss you got hit full force, now your opponent will always hit low.

Also Slippery Ice for penguins and such will be even more annoying. :)

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Postby Foobles » October 17th, 2014, 10:10 am

I'm unsure about the hit system as well. I thought I'd like it(SO TIRED OF MISSING WITH 95% HIT), but it feels weird. I've also noticed a handful of issues with magic abilities not doing more to flying, or mech to beast, etc.

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Postby Poofah » October 17th, 2014, 11:02 am

Awq wrote:I am unsure about the hit system....
One can not calculate the opponents damage that easily, which makes your cool down usage a lot more random.


I hate it. The removal of RNG was completely superficial -- at the critical decision making points in the game, there is actually more randomness than ever. For example, suppose opponent is at 250 health. Old system: I need to hit once, and my attack has 90% accuracy. New system: I need to get a 'high' hit, which is 50/50.

Over entire fights it's a nightmare to calculate odds. Old system: opponent has 1500 health, my attack does 400 -- ok I need to hit 4 times, and it's 85% accuracy, so it's 0.85^4 = 52% chance to kill in 4 turns. This is simple-- and I need to re-evaluate these odds on a turn-by-turn basis, so it's absolutely crucial that this be an easy and intuitive calculation. Also very importantly: *the outcome is less random as health gets lower,* as shown in the first example. Therefore as the decision becomes more important for the outcome of the game, it also becomes more predictable and therefore more subject to skillful decision-making.

New system: opponent has 1500 health, my attack does 255 sometimes and 425 sometimes -- ok I need either 4 high hits or 3 high and 1 low. What's that probability? Oh it's (4!/(4!*(4-4)!))*(0.5^4)*((1-0.5)^(4-4)) + (4!/(3!*(4-3)!))*(0.5^3)*((1-0.5)^(4-3)). And this is a probability that you need to recalculate or intuit every turn in order to make an informed decision about your ability use. So good luck with that.

The outcome is actually much more predictable at the start of the fight (that horrible equation actually comes out to a 31% chance of success in 4 turns). BUT, crucially, *the outcome is much more random as health gets lower*. The last hit is often a 50/50 proposition, instead of the old system where it was 80% or 90%.

All this just means that: at the start of the game, the new abilities provide a more predictable outcome. But when the game is actually on the line, the new abilities are much more random than the old ones. And the new abilities are absolutely horrible to calculate odds for, whereas the old ones were easy. I thought they did a good job on these abilities in theory, but it's absolutely miserable in practice.

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Postby Adumbledore » October 17th, 2014, 11:05 am

I was going to comment, but I think Poofah hit the nail on the head. :)
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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Postby Awq » October 17th, 2014, 11:40 am

Poofah wrote:I hate it. The removal of RNG was completely superficial -- at the critical decision making points in the game, there is actually more randomness than ever. For example, suppose opponent is at 250 health. Old system: I need to hit once, and my attack has 90% accuracy. New system: I need to get a 'high' hit, which is 50/50.

Over entire fights it's a nightmare to calculate odds. Old system: opponent has 1500 health, my attack does 400 -- ok I need to hit 4 times, and it's 85% accuracy, so it's 0.85^4 = 52% chance to kill in 4 turns. This is simple-- and I need to re-evaluate these odds on a turn-by-turn basis, so it's absolutely crucial that this be an easy and intuitive calculation. Also very importantly: *the outcome is less random as health gets lower,* as shown in the first example. Therefore as the decision becomes more important for the outcome of the game, it also becomes more predictable and therefore more subject to skillful decision-making.

Yes. The influence of decision making has drastically been reduced. A players skill has less impact on the outcome of the battle. Where misses slowed the game, crits make the game faster. I personally found it easier to deal with an additional round, than having 0.5 less rounds to make your move.

I knew what would happen from a 5.2 team that I played. Crits have been game breaking when I used the Corefire Imp. I used a certain N of auto attacks before I used Immolation. I would drop my health to 200 or something, before healing back up in the back row. If the opponent had a crit, I would lose. I would only lose when the opponent crit during the LAST two rounds, since I could change my game-plan during any other move. The unpredictability has been changed from 5% to 50%.

I do believe that one can play around this. One must map out the whole battle.
If you are far ahead, use risk avoidance. Assume the worst case scenario, and play around that.
If you are far behind, take risks! Assume that they will hit on the low end, to possibly gain another round.

But like I said, the influence of your predictions has less impact.
I would recommend using strong teams. The influence of team setup has increased.
I however need more data to make a real judgment.

Poofah wrote:All this just means that: at the start of the game, the new abilities provide a more predictable outcome. But when the game is actually on the line, the new abilities are much more random than the old ones. And the new abilities are absolutely horrible to calculate odds for, whereas the old ones were easy. I thought they did a good job on these abilities in theory, but it's absolutely miserable in practice.

I've predicted this, although I expected worse.
I assumed people who supported this system wanted more randomness. As in, they do not want to lose when they were ahead due to misses, while accepting a more random outcome in general. It does allow new players to have a better chance.
Last edited by Awq on October 17th, 2014, 12:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Postby Vek » October 17th, 2014, 11:49 am

Foobles wrote: I've also noticed a handful of issues with magic abilities not doing more to flying, or mech to beast, etc.

This is probably because the attacks are hitting in the low end damage range which makes the bonus damage feel like nothing.

Poofah wrote: For example, suppose opponent is at 250 health. Old system: I need to hit once, and my attack has 90% accuracy. New system: I need to get a 'high' hit, which is 50/50.


I wonder if this works in favour of the old 100% abilities. Before the patch they often felt weak, often hitting around 300. Now they wont be subject to this 50/50, so they might feel like a better option?

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Postby Awq » October 17th, 2014, 12:02 pm

Vek wrote:I wonder if this works in favour of the old 100% abilities.. they often felt weak, often hitting around 300. Now they wont be subject to this 50/50, so they might feel like a better option?

It depends. I don't believe that much has changed when it comes to choosing 100% moves or 50/50 moves.

Reducing randomness will still be the best choice if you have a high win rate, like it was with the previous system. While choosing randomness will be the best choice if you have a low win rate.

However, the matches will be more random. Your opponents randomness is what matters. Their randomness can speed the match up by reducing the amount of turns to kill you. In a close match they can get lucky for the last 2 rounds, and kill you.
You can not calculate cool down use anymore. You can not calculate when to use a cool down (like Survival), for example.

Edit:
100% moves have become better. The average damage has been lowered on 50/50 moves, compared to 80-90% moves, which makes 100% moves relatively stronger. This is quite irrelevant though (although it will be easier to get a good win rate with 100% moves).

Like I said: Reducing randomness will still be the best choice if you have a high win rate, like it was with the previous system. While choosing randomness will be the best choice if you have a low win rate.
Last edited by Awq on October 17th, 2014, 12:27 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Postby Skavenged » October 17th, 2014, 12:19 pm

Another small but critical change is number of attacks from multi-hits. Flurry, for instance used to get three attacks, with the first and last being guaranteed to hit, while the second was random. Made rabbits excellent shield or bubble killers while still tacking on a little damage. Now the number of attacks is random. This actually coincides better with the ability description, but will weaken pets that relied on it.

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Postby Sellys » October 17th, 2014, 1:17 pm

I can't say I'm impressed with the new version of hitting. Feels like abilities that had a 90% chance to hit, missile among other things, really took it in the shorts.

A 90% chance to do X damage is much better than 50% chance to to 3/4 X or 5/4 X.

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Postby Luciandk » October 17th, 2014, 1:52 pm

Hawk Eye looks quite strong, as a crit will always roll high. A P/P Quiraji Guardling should be able to push a beastly Crush with that.

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Postby Poofah » October 17th, 2014, 3:06 pm

Awq wrote:Reducing randomness will still be the best choice if you have a high win rate, like it was with the previous system. While choosing randomness will be the best choice if you have a low win rate.

However, the matches will be more random...


On a large timescale, it's actually less random. For example consider the chances of 'getting lucky' with Crush and KOing a pet in 4 turns. In the old system, you just had to hit 4 times in a row, ie 0.8^4 = 41% chance. That's pretty good odds, ie it favors the player who chooses randomness. In the new system, the chance to get 4 high hits in a row is 0.5^4 = 6%. So it is actually suppressing the effect of luck on the scale of multiple turns. A low win rate player should still choose randomness, but they are getting less out of it.

But on the scale of 1 turn, it is much more random. When a game is so close that it comes down to 100-200 health, then there is a very good chance it will be decided by a 50/50 coinflip now. In the old system these situations would be decided at worst by 80% hit abilities. So the most competitive and the closest games are the ones that will be decided by pure randomness now.

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Postby Poofah » October 17th, 2014, 3:12 pm

Luciandk wrote:Hawk Eye looks quite strong, as a crit will always roll high. A P/P Quiraji Guardling should be able to push a beastly Crush with that.


Crush, Crush, Crush, Crush = 4*(0.45*16 + 0.55*1.5*28) = 121.2 dmg over 4 turns
Hawk Eye, Crush, Crush, Crush = 3*(0.2*28 + 0.8*1.5*28) = 117.6 dmg over 4 turns

*edit* sorry, I was wrong wrong wrong, here is the correct math:

Crush, Crush, Crush, Crush = 4*((0.45*16) + (0.5*28) + (0.05*1.5*28)) = 93.2
Hawk Eye, Crush, Crush, Crush = 3*((0.2*28) + (0.8*1.5*28)) = 117.6
Last edited by Poofah on October 17th, 2014, 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Postby Luciandk » October 17th, 2014, 3:23 pm

Poofah wrote:
Luciandk wrote:Hawk Eye looks quite strong, as a crit will always roll high. A P/P Quiraji Guardling should be able to push a beastly Crush with that.


Crush, Crush, Crush, Crush = 4*(0.45*16 + 0.55*1.5*28) = 121.2 dmg over 4 turns
Hawk Eye, Crush, Crush, Crush = 3*(0.2*28 + 0.8*1.5*28) = 117.6 dmg over 4 turns


Hrm, so not really that much of a gain after all.

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Postby Vek » October 17th, 2014, 3:30 pm

Poofah wrote:
Luciandk wrote:Hawk Eye looks quite strong, as a crit will always roll high. A P/P Quiraji Guardling should be able to push a beastly Crush with that.


Crush, Crush, Crush, Crush = 4*(0.45*16 + 0.55*1.5*28) = 121.2 dmg over 4 turns
Hawk Eye, Crush, Crush, Crush = 3*(0.2*28 + 0.8*1.5*28) = 117.6 dmg over 4 turns


Not all 0.55 should get the *1.5 modifier, only 0.05. No?

And not sure if typo or not but low range on second row should be 16.

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Re: 6.0.2 First impressions

Postby Poofah » October 17th, 2014, 4:40 pm

Vek wrote:Not all 0.55 should get the *1.5 modifier, only 0.05. No?


Oops! Yes, bit of a screw-up on my part:

Crush, Crush, Crush, Crush = 4*((0.45*16) + (0.5*28) + (0.05*1.5*28)) = 93.2
Hawk Eye, Crush, Crush, Crush = 3*((0.2*28) + (0.8*1.5*28)) = 117.6

So it's actually not bad.

Vek wrote:And not sure if typo or not but low range on second row should be 16.


Regillixavatar tested this on beta with Raindance -- it seems to use a hit table, so that you fill in % chances from the top down, and once you fill the table then you just stop. Ie it's additive, even though it's percentages. So for example in this case, you'd have 80% crits (which are high hits), then 50% high hits, then 50% low hits. And it just gets cut off after 100%. It's possible that it's not the case for Hawk Eye, or that it changed -- if we see a low hit with Hawkeye up then we'd have to reassess.

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