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AH prices WoD

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Denarian
 
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AH prices WoD

Postby Denarian » March 19th, 2014, 3:57 pm

With the (supposed) upcoming changes to pets in WoD, I am wondering what people think pet prices on the market will do. Obviously, this is all speculation, but seeing as how free markets can be driven by speculation, do you think the market for most pets will drop considerably?

No longer needing to buy S/S Gilnean Ravens, S/S Death Adder Hatchlings, things like that. So those pets, where right now cost more than their counterparts, will be roughly the same.

Now what I also see might happen, is that pets that have best in family stats, could probably have their values raised.

Thoughts?

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Re: AH prices WoD

Postby Kpb321 » March 19th, 2014, 6:00 pm

I think it's really hard to predict because we don't know what breeding will actually end up looking like.

The current information about the way it apparently works with the Pet A determining the type of pet and not being destroyed and Pet B giving you the breed but getting lost would seem to suggest that things like the S/S Death Adder will get less valuable. All you need is a Death Adder of any breed and you could produce unlimited S/S Death Adders by breeding them with Siamese Cat which sell for less than a gold from a vendor. If that holds true I could even see S/S Death Adders actually being less valuable than other breeds. After all the cost to make one would be less than 1g but we don't know what the cool down will look like. Same would be true for any other beast pet where s/s would be a good breed, or p/p with the Cornish Rex Cat. Unless they add more restriction to the process than we've heard about the key factor will be the cost and availability of the pet B in the desired breed and cheap vendor pets with only a single breed will be the best source.

On the other hand there aren't many options at all for a S/S magic pet (Enchanted broom, Nordrassil Wisp and zergling are the current only options) so breeding a S/S magical pet is likely to still result in a fairly valuable pet assuming that is a good breed for the pet. Same for P/P magic as there are limited options with none being plentiful or easy to get like a vendor pet.

I haven't looked but I'd bet there is probably a cheap vendor pet that is a S/S critter so I wouldn't expect those S/S darkmoon rabbits to retain their premium either.

Thinking about it further I think there will have to be some changes otherwise the value of all rare pets will crash. Think about it with pet breeding the way it is described so far you are effectively letting everyone who has one dupe a Viscous horror for the cost of what ever the cheapest/easiest to capture magical pet is. It could be as simple as making pets from breeding non-tradable but they will have to do something.

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Re: AH prices WoD

Postby Digem » March 20th, 2014, 8:49 am

This is what makes me love this site, I had not thought of this conscienquense.
I hope blizz does .
You cannot destroy the pet market it would be disastrous.
The only real option here is to only allow non cageable pets to be bred.
So only wild caught or quest reward.
Otherwise you kill the market and make any future drop pets from raids or islands almost meaningless.
Why camp them or do the raids over and over to get them when all one has to do is wait for the breeders to flood the market?
The reason they put in places like that is to get us out in the world this would make it that why would one even bother?
Plenty of non-cageable pets that a different bred would make better why ruin the market place and doing things out in the world?

I hope blizz knows and or thinks of this

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Re: AH prices WoD

Postby Index » March 20th, 2014, 9:27 am

Hmmm, I was hoping they kept breeding type specific. i.e you cant breed a snake with a cat (dear God, someone think of the children!!!!)

Meaning you would likely need two of the same family type to breed with. You'd not see the unholy union of a water beetle and a parrot in the real world, would you? :P

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Re: AH prices WoD

Postby Kpb321 » March 20th, 2014, 10:47 am

Index,

A far as I know sub-categories for Pet Families such as snakes and cats for beasts aren't something that actually exists in game as far as I know and everything I've seen so far just said beast and beast would be the limitation. Yeah it seems odd but then again so far it doesn't really sound much like real world breeding. You aren't getting a randomized combination of the "parents" stats and abilities but a static set from each one. You also loose one "parent" in the process.

Digem,
The simplest answer to me seems to be just making the pets resulting from breeding not cagable. You'd probably have to make the surviving parent not cagable too otherwise people just learn the pet, breed it for their own copy and resell the pet again. This way you can allow people to breed any pets they want but without worrying about affecting the pet market much. You wouldn't flood the market with pets from breeding but it would still hurt the price premium for things like S/S Death Adder or S/S DM Rabbit because if you care it shouldn't be hard to breed a S/S one from picking up any other breed.

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Re: AH prices WoD

Postby Denarian » March 20th, 2014, 11:17 am

Kpb321 wrote:Digem,
You'd probably have to make the surviving parent not cagable too otherwise people just learn the pet, breed it for their own copy and resell the pet again. This way you can allow people to breed any pets they want but without worrying about affecting the pet market much.


I disagree with this. I feel that the surviving parent, should definitely be cageable, as long as it's not a wild pet. Lil' Raganros will become a hot commodity, seeing as it has the strongest attack of the Elemental pets. I would love it for Jadefire Spirit. It would demolish birds, who most have multi-attacks, and with the scaling of Emerald Presence, it would mitigate the damage considerably. Plus, with Healing Flame scaling as well, it could be reserved for those heavy hits like Lift-Off. You combine that with jade Claw, you have a wrecking ball.

Not even Miley Cyrus could stop it.

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Re: AH prices WoD

Postby Digem » March 20th, 2014, 12:44 pm

Agree they would have to do something like the breed pet and ones used in breeding being uncagable or it could lead to multiple bad conscienquenses.
Not just ah but the purpose of game is to get us out doing things.
If I can sit back and wait for the flood of bred pets why go after them myself?
Specially if you have my luck and either nothing ever drops for you or takes almost a whole expansion I could avoid the frustration and wait for the flood of breed pets.
Seems it would be defeating the reason to play?
Might as well unsub come on at end of expansion a gobble up the cheap pets.

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Re: AH prices WoD

Postby Poofah » March 20th, 2014, 3:32 pm

Kpb321 wrote:You'd probably have to make the surviving parent not cagable too otherwise people just learn the pet, breed it for their own copy and resell the pet again.


Denarian wrote:I feel that the surviving parent, should definitely be cageable, as long as it's not a wild pet.


But this is obviously a huge problem. If a parent or offspring is allowed to remain BoE, then breeding allows any player to dupe any pet by legit means. That would collapse the value of any BoE pet essentially to nothing.

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Re: AH prices WoD

Postby Kpb321 » March 20th, 2014, 3:48 pm

Denarian wrote:I disagree with this. I feel that the surviving parent, should definitely be cageable, as long as it's not a wild pet.

I don't see how you could allow this with out crashing the market for any cagable pet. For example. I buy a Darkmoon rabbit of any breed on the AH. I breed it with a random S/S critter to make a S/S DM Rabbit. I cage and sell the original DM Rabbit. Everyone else who wants a DM Rabbit repeats the same process so essentially the supply is infinite and there is no way the price won't crash.

Lil' Raganros will become a hot commodity, seeing as it has the strongest attack of the Elemental pets.

I haven't seen anything to indicate that breeding would make currently uncagable pets cagable and I can't image they would do that with pet store pets especially.
I would love it for Jadefire Spirit. It would demolish birds, who most have multi-attacks, and with the scaling of Emerald Presence, it would mitigate the damage considerably. Plus, with Healing Flame scaling as well, it could be reserved for those heavy hits like Lift-Off. You combine that with jade Claw, you have a wrecking ball.


I'm assuming you are looking for a P/P Jadefire Spirit which would be nice but I don't think you could use lil' Rag as a pet store pet and it would be lost in the breeding process. The pet that give the breed gets lost in the process and they've said they'd protect unique pets like lil rag. For a P/P jadefire spirit you'd need a Shale hatchling or Geode.

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Re: AH prices WoD

Postby Denarian » March 20th, 2014, 4:08 pm

Well, it would be a long time for the pet prices to shift dramatically due to AH "sires" (the giver of stats), mainly because people would want to keep pets like Sapphire Cub to potentially make all of their elemental pets (or at least all with unique movesets) available with Sapphire stats.

So, I could potentially see a problem long term with allowing the selling of used "sires," but, I imagine there will be some sort of cooldown on the breeding. Perhaps once a day, or a week, something to that affect. If that's the case, I don't imagine pet prices will drop that much. We do not know what is in store for WoD, but I am always trying to stay ahead of the market.

Here's looking at you, Razzashi Hatchiling.... Originally thinking Cata would allow me to make a killing off those little buggers. Bought 3, then the news came out about them being "relocated" and not "removed". not the money maker I had hoped for ;)

Kpb321 wrote:I haven't seen anything to indicate that breeding would make currently uncagable pets cagable and I can't image they would do that with pet store pets especially.


To be fair, you haven't seen a lot of what WoD has to offer. That being said, although not cageable, Rag would still be a hot commodity in the trading community due to it's stats.

I'm assuming you are looking for a P/P Jadefire Spirit which would be nice but I don't think you could use lil' Rag as a pet store pet and it would be lost in the breeding process. The pet that give the breed gets lost in the process and they've said they'd protect unique pets like lil rag. For a P/P jadefire spirit you'd need a Shale hatchling or Geode.


From we understand right now, there are two pets that start the breeding process. One is the "sire," or the supplier of stats, if you will, and one is the recipient, (the body). If Rag was the "sire," he would not be destroyed in the process. The Jadefire would be, and it would make way for the p/p Jadefire. That's what I understand of the pet breeding so far. But alas, we do not know what will happen at this point.

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Re: AH prices WoD

Postby Denarian » March 20th, 2014, 4:14 pm

Also, Kpb321, you are misunderstanding what I am saying.

I would like the sires to be able to be sold again, not the resulting pet. So, for your example of the Darkmoon Rabbit, yes, you could buy any breed Darkmoon Rabbit, and breed it with any critter, but your old Darkmoon Rabbit would "die, and the critter and the "new" Darkmoon rabbit would be there.

What I am talking about is having the critter allowable to sell, not the resulting Darkmoon Rabbit.

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Re: AH prices WoD

Postby Kpb321 » March 20th, 2014, 4:20 pm

Last information I saw said that Pet A gave the moves and specific pet type and Pet B gave the breed. Pet B that determined the breed is the pet that is lost. So breeding a DM Rabbit as A with a Random S/S critter as B would result in you keeping your existing DM Rabbit, loosing the random S/S critter and getting a new S/S DM Rabbit. In that scenario I can't let you keep the DM Rabbit as cagable and give you a copy with a new breed or you will crash the market for the DM rabbit. It is also why you can't use Lil rag to make a P/P elemental. It would be lost in the process and blizzard doesn't want to allow that.

Also as far as I've seen they are just copying the breed p/p not the base stats from that pet so it doesn't matter what p/p pet you use as pet b the results will be the same. Wowhead already allows you to show all breeds for pets so you can get an idea of what things will likely look at after breeding. Copying the base stats from the parent in addition to the breed would be a nightmare as far as I can see because there is no easy way to handle it.

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Re: AH prices WoD

Postby Denarian » March 20th, 2014, 4:30 pm

Kpb321 wrote:Last information I saw said that Pet A gave the moves and specific pet type and Pet B gave the breed. Pet B that determined the breed is the pet that is lost. So breeding a DM Rabbit as A with a Random S/S critter as B would result in you keeping your existing DM Rabbit, loosing the random S/S critter and getting a new S/S DM Rabbit. In that scenario I can't let you keep the DM Rabbit as cagable and give you a copy with a new breed or you will crash the market for the DM rabbit. It is also why you can't use Lil rag to make a P/P elemental. It would be lost in the process and blizzard doesn't want to allow that.

Also as far as I've seen they are just copying the breed p/p not the base stats from that pet so it doesn't matter what p/p pet you use as pet b the results will be the same. Wowhead already allows you to show all breeds for pets so you can get an idea of what things will likely look at after breeding. Copying the base stats from the parent in addition to the breed would be a nightmare as far as I can see because there is no easy way to handle it.


I'd like to see where you got this information from, because I cannot find anything that specific about breeding in WoD. Pretty much everything I have seen, has been speculation.

Edit**

This is the only thing I have seen that mentions any sort of specifics from Blizz.
https://twitter.com/mumper/status/399710738698076160

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Re: AH prices WoD

Postby Quintessence » March 20th, 2014, 5:03 pm

https://twitter.com/mumper/status/399991028947881984

"Current plan is that you retain the primary pet and consume the 2nd."

Keep in mind this was a Tweet from November of last year. Things may have changed since then. We simply won't know for sure until something's officially announced.

I'm fairly confident that Blizzard will take the economy into consideration IF they implement pet breeding. We'll see, though.
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Re: AH prices WoD

Postby Azrile » March 20th, 2014, 10:49 pm

I think the market for specific breeds of pets is pretty obscure considering there is nothing even in the default UI that shows breeds. I think it would be pretty hard to crash a market that barely exists.. more often than not, on the high population servers the price for breeds isn´t even important because so many people don´t even know there is a difference. The breeds we think are more valuable are constantly priced by novices at the same price as everything else.

My guess would be the caging rules would stay as they are now based on the baby pet that is produced. Also to point out the same people who did pet battles are doing Garrisons.. so my hunch is this entire system will be an afterthought.

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Re: AH prices WoD

Postby Haevlyn » March 21st, 2014, 5:39 am

Quintessence wrote:https://twitter.com/mumper/status/399991028947881984

"Current plan is that you retain the primary pet and consume the 2nd."

Keep in mind this was a Tweet from November of last year. Things may have changed since then. We simply won't know for sure until something's officially announced.

I'm fairly confident that Blizzard will take the economy into consideration IF they implement pet breeding. We'll see, though.


To be honest, I don't think blizzard will announce anything. We'll find out when WoD starts and no sooner. I wouldn't be surprised if pet breeding isn't even in 6.0. They've backtracked every other pet change they've mentioned so far.

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Re: AH prices WoD

Postby Digem » March 21st, 2014, 6:10 am

Haevlyn wrote:
Quintessence wrote:https://twitter.com/mumper/status/399991028947881984

"Current plan is that you retain the primary pet and consume the 2nd."

Keep in mind this was a Tweet from November of last year. Things may have changed since then. We simply won't know for sure until something's officially announced.

I'm fairly confident that Blizzard will take the economy into consideration IF they implement pet breeding. We'll see, though.


To be honest, I don't think blizzard will announce anything. We'll find out when WoD starts and no sooner. I wouldn't be surprised if pet breeding isn't even in 6.0. They've backtracked every other pet change they've mentioned so far.


This comment hits the nail on the head.
I don't think blizz thought pet battling would be this big or planned on continuing it at first .
Usually they add something in an expansion and forget about come the next one looking directly at you my precious farm.
Heck the garrison seems to be a one expansion thing which will make very costly specially for Alts.
Blizz does not usually do long term well so I think they jumped the gun with announcing breeding and are just now realizing the conscienquenses .
Just hope it is done right.

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Re: AH prices WoD

Postby Quintessence » March 21st, 2014, 12:24 pm

Digem wrote:I think they jumped the gun with announcing breeding and are just now realizing the conscienquenses .
Just hope it is done right.


That's my impression too.

At this point, I'm at a loss with how they will introduce breeding but still maintain a balance in all aspects (PVE, PVP, the economy, etc.) With so little recent information on it, I'm kind of losing confidence about the whole thing. :\

It wouldn't surprise me if breeding did make it into the game, but it was mainly for vanity purposes (new skins/colors for existing pets) and had little to no impact on the PVE/PVP side of pet battles. Cut out the complicated stuff, but leave the original concept in? I don't know. I'll wait on it, even though the lack of information isn't very inspiring.
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Re: AH prices WoD

Postby Peanutty » March 21st, 2014, 12:40 pm

Quintessence wrote:It wouldn't surprise me if breeding did make it into the game, but it was mainly for vanity purposes (new skins/colors for existing pets) and had little to no impact on the PVE/PVP side of pet battles. Cut out the complicated stuff, but leave the original concept in? I don't know. I'll wait on it, even though the lack of information isn't very inspiring.


I admit I wasn't thrilled to hear about the breeding concept in general because I feel the pet battle system is already pretty complete as is, considering it's a mini game that most players have dabbled in, but relatively few make "hardcore progress" in (just like raiding). Make the mini game too complicated or challenging and I think you'll see even more casual collectors saying this is just not for them.

I think it would be fun if it was implemented for vanity's sake - I'd love to see a wider range of colors on some of the unique model pets (like Ravager Hatchling... there's dozens of colors that already exist).

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Re: AH prices WoD

Postby Poofah » March 21st, 2014, 1:38 pm

Quintessence wrote:I'm at a loss with how they will introduce breeding but still maintain a balance in all aspects (PVE, PVP, the economy, etc.)


The basic pet battle design is very elegant and modular, for the most part. There's a simple formula for making individual abilities balanced. And it's set up so that if individual moves are balanced, then any moveset should also be balanced. And if a moveset is balanced with one breed, it should also be balanced with any other breed.

This has largely been successful. Most balance problems have come from individual moves that are clearly too powerful (Haunt, Blinding Poison, Nether Gate, Death Grip, Trihorn Charge), rather than a combination of balanced moves becoming too powerful when combined in a moveset (Supercharge+Wind-Up), or a particular moveset becoming too powerful when put onto a superior breed (I actually can't think of an overpowered example here--maybe the worst culprit is Emerald Whelpling->Emerald Proto-Whelp). And the solution has almost always been to nerf individual moves, rather than alter movesets. Moves are always the root of the problem, not the movesets or breeds.

So I really don't think that swapping breeds on existing movesets will create a balance problem. There have been a couple threads where we brainstormed possible new combos, and I don't think anything has stood out as obviously overpowered.

In fact I think this is why breeding is on the table as a new feature: in theory it's extremely easy to implement, and the consequences should be predictable and balanced. Ie very little work for a lot of new content.

There is a lot of potential for economic damage, but Bliz would have to make a major implementation mistake for that to happen. There's basically no way that breeding will let us create tradeable copies of pets.

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