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5.2: are we suckers?

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Poofah
 
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5.2: are we suckers?

Postby Poofah » March 14th, 2013, 4:20 pm

This could go in either the carp thread or the beasts of fable thread, but it’s longish so I’m starting a new one. The title is mildly inflammatory, on purpose.

I was very excited when they announced pet battles, in large part because I thought to myself: “now we’ll hunt and capture rare pets, instead of doing crazy RNGfests to get them! Hurray!” And this is largely how it worked in 5.0 and 5.1, and it was great. There was certainly still RNG involved, but in those cases the drop rates generally weren’t bad: you could beat the odds by doing the Spirit Tamers dailies enough times (for example), and in the worst case you could always buy or trade for that one pet you couldn’t get since they were now tradeable. I could even go out and buy the old RNGfest pets that I never got, like Crawling Claw. It was grand!

5.2 is a huge step backward.

Whereas the Spirit Tamers were genuinely interesting and quick to complete, the Beasts of Fable daily is a completely non-challenging hour-long chore. The pandas have a relatively high drop rate, however, and are tradeable. They’re not as fun to acquire as the spirits, but at least they’re tolerable. If Beasts of Fable had been implemented in 5.1, I think we’d hate them quite a bit more than we do already. However in 5.2 there is an even worse RNGfest to make the Beasts look less awful than they really are.

Of course I am talking about the carps.

Why are we back to the bad old days of absurd RNGfests? First of all, I can think of only 2 ingame activities more tedious than the Beasts daily quest, and those are Archeology and Fishing. Second, the drop rate is so low that most people will have to fish thousands of times if they want to catch these pets. Third and worst of all, they’re not tradeable, so the people who hate fishing or are simply unlucky have no choice but to keep fishing or give up altogether.

I’m baffled as to why they’ve gone back to this RNGfest model, and I'm disappointed. It’s a lazy but effective way to squeeze playing time from essentially zero new content. They’ve been doing this to us forever, but I thought with pet battles they had finally decided to get away from this model and instead reward pets for doing something… fun.

I thought MoP was a brave new world. But I was a sucker.

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Re: 5.2: are we suckers?

Postby Gilneas » March 14th, 2013, 4:38 pm

I have no problem with the Beasts. I can do it in 30-40 minutes while I am waiting on queues or doing dailies. And I find it an interesting diversion.

As to the fish, they never said we would only get pets from the new sources and that they're wouldn't continue to be rare drops and such. Also its not as if there weren't pets that were rare or rare drops in 5.0. Grinder was pretty horrible for me. I would have prefered the fish. And though I had no trouble with them due to server restarts, the rarity on some of the wild pets was as bad as many rare drops. Heck if it weren't for respawning on restarts for a while I bet a lot of people here would still not have the minfernal

Really, Blizzard never said they were getting rid of rare pets from drops and such. Anyone who assumed that only has their assumption to blame for their disappointment.

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Re: 5.2: are we suckers?

Postby Ryazan » March 14th, 2013, 4:39 pm

Kind of agreeing here but I don't dislike fishing as much I'm reading between your lines. :)

First I was pretty much nerdraging when I heard the carps were added and I was all "FOUR carps, you gotta be fucking kidding me", but gradually I just accepted the fact I have to fish a lot to get them. It also helps to motivate me that I have a chance for the Sea Turtle too while fishing the carps - tho if I won't get it, it's still ok.

Fishing isn't that bad if you just come up some other activity to do while fishing to keep you sane. Like now I'm watching series while fishing. :P
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Re: 5.2: are we suckers?

Postby GilroyKilroy » March 14th, 2013, 6:56 pm

I think the issue is that most people want their fish *now* and will fish for hours straight until they get them all. I believe the idea was to take it in moderation and fish for a short while and spread getting the four carps over the period of weeks/months and not hours/days.

Now having to kill elite dinosaurs when you main spec is heals and you have only a little bit of DPS spec gear (in leather).... :)

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Re: 5.2: are we suckers?

Postby Jadax » March 14th, 2013, 7:12 pm

Pets come from a variety of places. If you don't want to fish, don't collect them.

Being a pet collector has always involved doing boring things, or things that don't suit your play style. So does collecting mounts. Or tabards. Or titles. I don't want to get exalted with the Order of the Cloud Serpent. I didn't want to farm my Disgusting Oozeling. I didn't want to fish hours for my Giant Rat. I didn't want to dig for months to get my Crawling Claw. But then, at the same time, I did want to do all those things, because I wanted those pets. And getting those pets was awesome.

When you choose to collect things, you choose a challenge. That comes in many varied forms.
If you're not up for that, you've chosen the wrong thing to do in-game.

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Re: 5.2: are we suckers?

Postby Poofah » March 14th, 2013, 7:32 pm

Gilneas wrote:Also its not as if there weren't pets that were rare or rare drops in 5.0. Grinder was pretty horrible for me. I would have prefered the fish.


The minor difference is that Grinder is actually pretty common--a 10% drop chance from a mob that spawns every 1-2 hours. The major difference is that it's tradeable. Regardless of drop chance, I would have no issue with the carps if they were tradeable. My issue is that there is only one avenue to get them, and that avenue is incredibly tedious and unfun.

Ryazan wrote:Fishing isn't that bad if you just come up some other activity to do while fishing to keep you sane. Like now I'm watching series while fishing. :P


Playing video games is ostensibly supposed to be fun. If you need a diversion from your fun, how fun can it be?

Ryazan wrote:Kind of agreeing here but I don't dislike fishing as much I'm reading between your lines. :)


Archeology is the challenge of moving, then clicking, then moving, then clicking. Fishing is just like Archeology, but without the moving.

Gilneas wrote:Really, Blizzard never said they were getting rid of rare pets from drops and such. Anyone who assumed that only has their assumption to blame for their disappointment.


That's just silly. When an alcoholic relapses, it's reasonable to be disappointed--even if they never promised not to, and even if it's predictable.

In 5.0, all of the RNG drop pets from fishing/archeology/holidays were made tradeable. That stayed true in 5.1. Now we have the carps as the only exception. It seems perfectly reasonable to wonder why they made such an about-face, and to be disappointed that they did it.

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Re: 5.2: are we suckers?

Postby Poofah » March 14th, 2013, 8:08 pm

GilroyKilroy wrote:I believe the idea was to take it in moderation and fish for a short while and spread getting the four carps over the period of weeks/months and not hours/days.


They have a mechanism to do this. They could have made a fishing daily quest that rewards a token; the carps could cost some number of tokens.

Instead they chose an RNG drop (which is the same as a variable reinforcement schedule, which you can read about here -- I linked it in the OP but not very prominently -- it's worth a quick read).

Sunscorch wrote:When you choose to collect things, you choose a challenge. That comes in many varied forms.
If you're not up for that, you've chosen the wrong thing to do in-game.


Well that's the crux of it: the nature of the challenge. I'd refute your assertion that there are many varied forms:

Sunscorch wrote:I didn't want to farm my Disgusting Oozeling. I didn't want to fish hours for my Giant Rat. I didn't want to dig for months to get my Crawling Claw.


Bonking slimes for a random shot at a pet; clicking on water for a random shot at a pet; clicking on land for a random shot at a pet: not exactly varied, and not exactly challenging. The only 'challenge' is overcoming the drop rate through either luck or brute force. At what point is that challenge no longer reasonable? I gave up on Crawling Claw after ~500 tolvir solves, but only because I could buy it. I'd still be digging otherwise.

Cloud Serpent rep is genuinely different from those others, I'll grant you that. I didn't particularly enjoy that either, but at least it was actual content.

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Re: 5.2: are we suckers?

Postby Stonewallred » March 14th, 2013, 9:16 pm

Eh, I don't pve. Bought and borrowed pets for the raiding with leashes achieve.
Haven't been to the new island except one time on my main to see what it was about, did three or four quests and left.
Bought the raptors and a friend gave me the mechanical pet.

Haven't got to fishing for the new pets, but will. Dinged two toons to 90 this AV weekend, making gold to pay for flight, gear and working on them has been filling my play time. GG Blizz, locking PVP gear behind not only honor points, but 2500 gold too.

Going to be off the norm probably, but the fish will come when the fish come. Speaking as a person who has a level 5 who has caught the Giant Sewer Rat, walks by the fountain in Dal flipping her Coin, and also has the Turtle mount.

Look at El's and see where they are caught, put in a bit of time every day, and eventually you'll catch them. Rushing, fretting, raging, crying for "fixes", or otherwise not accepting that they are rare catches and will come when they come; leads to high blood pressure, bad feelings and anger.

I never "fished" for the turtle mount. Knew it came from pools, but never chased it. Then one day, "BAM!!!!!" there it was. Awesome sauce x 1000!. I have caught on Claaswolff more than 25k fish and other things though. I sort of enjoyed back in Vanilla, going to new places and fishing, to see what I could catch. Caught a crocolisc at lvl 10 or so in Wetlands. Now that was a catch lol. But even today, with all the resources and information out there, I'll step up to a body of water, put on my fishing cap, get out my favorite rod, attach my lure, and cast, and feel that old familiar and enjoyable anticipation; wondering, "What will I catch?"

Fish with that attitude, and the pets might be an easier grind.

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Re: 5.2: are we suckers?

Postby Aingealwroth » March 14th, 2013, 10:02 pm

I didn't read your whole post, I admit that, and its usually something I would never do when responding but... it was making my headache worse, because I wasn't following your logic at all.

Pets, like all other 'bonus' type items in the game (see achievements) are just that, additional things you do or get for going out of your way to get them. If they were simple and easy to get (past the ones that have been in the game so long it barely counts, see Undercity Cockroach) then there would barely be any point.

"Look at this awesome BANELING I just got."
"Huh? Oh, that, yeah, I have that."
"What about this other awesome pet I have, the Sprite Darter Hatching."
"Yeah, Yeah, have that, what else."
"Uh... Rare Minfernal?"
"3 of those, what are you, some noob?"
"Not a noob, I have all level 25 rares of EVERY PET EVER!"
"So does everyone else on the server, shush."
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Re: 5.2: are we suckers?

Postby Quintessence » March 15th, 2013, 12:02 am

My take on patch 5.2 is more of a "collector's" patch rather than a "battler's" patch. Sure there is a new daily (Beasts of Fable), but as many have mentioned, it was underwhelming. On the other hand, previous patches have had amazing PVE pet content implemented.

5.2 seems more oriented towards those that wish to just collect, rather than purely battle. The RNG is reminiscent of days past when you had to just grind on things until you saw a drop. I'd like to think developers are giving those that enjoyed that type of gameplay a nod in 5.2 with all of the RNG drops.

One thing I think some forget is that collecting and battling isn't exactly the same thing, and some still prefer collecting. Both styles of gameplay need love in the long run, so sometimes there will be awesome PVE/battling content, while other times there will be more RNG/drop/searching and collecting content.

Personally, I'm enjoying 5.2 for the most part. My only complaint? Too much to do and the mentality of "must do/get all nao!" is pretty strong these days.
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Re: 5.2: are we suckers?

Postby Poofah » March 15th, 2013, 1:29 am

Aingealwroth wrote:I didn't read your whole post... If they were simple and easy to get (past the ones that have been in the game so long it barely counts, see Undercity Cockroach) then there would barely be any point.


Even if you had read it, you wouldn't be able to point to the part where I said pets should all be easy to get.

Quintessence wrote:One thing I think some forget is that collecting and battling isn't exactly the same thing, and some still prefer collecting.

Quintessence wrote:The RNG is reminiscent of days past when you had to just grind on things until you saw a drop. I'd like to think developers are giving those that enjoyed that type of gameplay a nod in 5.2 with all of the RNG drops.


I totally agree with the first quote: the second part is what worries me.

I collected pets pre-MoP: I hated RNG then too, but I managed. In 5.0/5.1, they found a lot of ways to give us pets without resorting to those 0.1% drop chances. Grinder/Aqua Strider are 10% drop rates from rare mobs--you have to be in the right place at the right time and it's not completely trivial to solo them. Hopling was a reasonably fun achievement. Darkmoon Rabbit is probably the toughest of the recent pets, but it's not tough due to an absurdly low drop rate. Thundering Serpent Hatchling is tied to a quite difficult achievement.

So, they proved that they could give us difficult pets to collect without resorting to RNG as a mechanism for creating scarcity or 'difficulty'. And now it's back, either because they actually think people enjoy this sort of gameplay, or because they want to give us something to spend a lot of hours on without generating new content. I don't like either possibility.

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Re: 5.2: are we suckers?

Postby Jadax » March 15th, 2013, 1:39 am

Poofah wrote:
Sunscorch wrote:When you choose to collect things, you choose a challenge. That comes in many varied forms.
If you're not up for that, you've chosen the wrong thing to do in-game.


Well that's the crux of it: the nature of the challenge. I'd refute your assertion that there are many varied forms:

Sunscorch wrote:I didn't want to farm my Disgusting Oozeling. I didn't want to fish hours for my Giant Rat. I didn't want to dig for months to get my Crawling Claw.


Bonking slimes for a random shot at a pet; clicking on water for a random shot at a pet; clicking on land for a random shot at a pet: not exactly varied, and not exactly challenging. The only 'challenge' is overcoming the drop rate through either luck or brute force. At what point is that challenge no longer reasonable? I gave up on Crawling Claw after ~500 tolvir solves, but only because I could buy it. I'd still be digging otherwise.

Cloud Serpent rep is genuinely different from those others, I'll grant you that. I didn't particularly enjoy that either, but at least it was actual content.


It's not like 5.2 is short on "actual content". We just got a fishing grind too.
Some pets require boring grinds - if you don't want to do it, don't do it! There's no trend being set here, it's just a little more of that which came before. Overcoming the drop rate through sheer brute force is a challenge. It might not be the challenge that you want to face, but hey. You're not everyone.

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Re: 5.2: are we suckers?

Postby Quintessence » March 15th, 2013, 1:44 am

Poofah wrote:either because they actually think people enjoy this sort of gameplay, or because they want to give us something to spend a lot of hours on without generating new content.


I think it's a little of both. We have to remember that their mentality is to implement pets that "fit". They implemented significant fishing changes in 5.2, so I guess they figured fishing up pets worked. Why these pets aren't cageable, is a little confusing, but I suppose it's for those that desire this type of collecting. It's not super exclusive, but does take some persistence, patience, and determination.

Another thing that should be noted is while there are some "good" ways to implement hard to get pets without having to resort to RNG grinds, some variety does keep things interesting. Some may like the challenge, and with that in mind Blizzard needs to address the desire for a few pets to be acquired in that way. Devs can't make everyone happy, but they seem to want to give something fun for every type of battle/collector.

I don't doubt that these RNG styled pets are there to keep us playing and busy for some time. The game needs that sometimes, though. Plus in the larger scheme of things, these are just a drop in the bucket of the many pets we can get. :)
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Re: 5.2: are we suckers?

Postby Ryazan » March 15th, 2013, 2:08 am

Poofah wrote:
Ryazan wrote:Fishing isn't that bad if you just come up some other activity to do while fishing to keep you sane. Like now I'm watching series while fishing. :P


Playing video games is ostensibly supposed to be fun. If you need a diversion from your fun, how fun can it be?

I don't always consider doing the same tamer dailies EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. fun but I still do them because I want to max all my pets and I still need the stones. Nor do I really enjoy the new Kirin Tor dailies but still I do them because I want to cap the rep. Or back in vanilla when you needed to grind your ass off for the First epic mount, I was losing my marbles hard every now and then but still the reward looming in the distance made me push forward.

There are quite many things in WoW that aren't fun to do but you just have to cope with them for the greater good. I guess people can and will define their "fun" differently but for me it's rather the feeling of accomplishment when you reach your goal than the actual journey. Not saying I don't ever enjoy the journey but most of the times it's the cake at the end of the rainbow which rocks my boat.
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Re: 5.2: are we suckers?

Postby Stabya » March 15th, 2013, 7:35 am

5.2 is like a sugar high for PVE, and a Stimulation to the old school collector

A rush of several fun things for everyone. Raptors and Panda took me about a week, and by Next week I am sure everyone will have them.

Now, what remains will be a mixed bag.

1. Beasts of Fable Quest = Very low Replay Value in it's current state

2. Tamer Dailies - Just by repetition and attrition it will be on a slow decline, as the number of Pets to make rare and level get lower and lower

3. PVP - Yes it's more balanced, but remains a very low achievement and reward aspect of the game

4. Collecting - Old School, and challenging. It will take a while to grind all the carps and collect the Raid Pets


I think 5.3 and beyond they expand the pet PVP Experience, or contuinue to introduce new pets, to keep the Pet Battling from getting stale.

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Re: 5.2: are we suckers?

Postby Dragonwizard » March 15th, 2013, 7:43 am

Overall I don't mind them adding a fishing pet that is RNG based. What I do mind is them adding 4 pets that are RNG based. 1 pet would be hard to do, 2 pets makes it a timesink challenge, 3 pets is just /sigh but 4 pets is just omgwtf are you thinking Blizzard. It took me 2 and a half xpacs to get my Turtle mount as RNG has always hated me.

I am not looking forward to having to grind out 4 pets that supposedly have the same drop rate as the turtle(and yes the OCD collector in me makes me have to do it lol). I just wish Blizzard had only added one or two pets this way or if they really wanted 4 then given them the same drop rate as something like the Giant Sewer Rat instead of the Turtle.
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Re: 5.2: are we suckers?

Postby Gromagrim » March 15th, 2013, 8:57 am

Dragonwizard wrote:I just wish Blizzard had only added one or two pets this way or if they really wanted 4 then given them the same drop rate as something like the Giant Sewer Rat instead of the Turtle.
Perversely, I got my turtle long before my sewer rat, which I'd got twice on an alt doing the fishing daily before I ever fished it on my main!

I honestly don't mind the carps, I'm currently doing the daily fishing pools to kill krakkenok, or at least till I get the Paglefish, and I'm hoping to get one or two carps dropping during this grind. None yet though ;)

It took me months to get my Dark Herring, doing the odd hour here and there and I'm happy to do the same with the carps, I don't get the 'catch-em-all' urge that strong from high RNG pets like those (despite my 500+ pets suggesting differently :D).

Isle of Thunder wild pets - Well implemented
Zandalari Raptors - Too easy to obtain pre-nerf, perfect post-nerf
Bone grinding - Well implemented (different story for the mount!)
Raid pets - I like the idea, hope that LFR has around a 10% drop though, need to wait and see.
Carps - RNG fishing, we've been here before ,we'll be here again.
Beasts of Fable - Will only do till I have the pandas, then only when I fly over one. Poor design IMO. (see other thread for my in depth comments)

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Re: 5.2: are we suckers?

Postby Breehit » March 15th, 2013, 12:57 pm

I tend to agree with Poofah: the grind for the carp is excessive. Yes, grinding is a collection job that some folks like. I actually enjoyed getting my Tol Barad fox, but I could do that with 20-100 kills/day and about 30 minutes a day, and it took me about a month. Plus, in Tol Barad I managed to get a reasonable amount of gold for all those furry corpses of mama foxes. I even enjoyed getting my cute little Sea Pony. But...FOUR of those godforsaken mythical carp????? I am now fishing 3-4 hours a day, and doing nothing else in my finite game time. No carp yet. I did, however, get the Sea Turtle last night, but by then I had long since given up on that RNG grind, and I just sorta shrugged :?

Anyway, its all a trade-off...if I fish, I don't get gear. If I do things to get gear, I will never get those freaking carp. We may as well just accept that Blizzard has designated fishing pets to be LOOOOONG RNG grinds, really suitable for people who don't prefer to do anything on WoW but grind. Once all my 90s have their Tillers leveled (and the endless fishing is at least useful for that), I am going to put the carp search into the bottom drawer along with the other "do nothing but whack low level critters over and over for no point" RNG annoyances.

I actually spent several hours back on Second Life last night, gazing fondly at my pixelated fireplace. It was more relaxing and less frustrating than spending 3-4 hours a day WoW fishing. /sigh

Then I picked up my real life Shih Tzu, kissed his little ears, and remembered why I like collecting pets in the first place. :D

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Re: 5.2: are we suckers?

Postby Mehetabel » March 15th, 2013, 1:09 pm

Sunscorch wrote:Pets come from a variety of places. If you don't want to fish, don't collect them.

Being a pet collector has always involved doing boring things, or things that don't suit your play style. So does collecting mounts. Or tabards. Or titles. I don't want to get exalted with the Order of the Cloud Serpent. I didn't want to farm my Disgusting Oozeling. I didn't want to fish hours for my Giant Rat. I didn't want to dig for months to get my Crawling Claw. But then, at the same time, I did want to do all those things, because I wanted those pets. And getting those pets was awesome.

When you choose to collect things, you choose a challenge. That comes in many varied forms.
If you're not up for that, you've chosen the wrong thing to do in-game.


This is pretty much how I feel too. Also, if every pet was easy to get (no drop rate pets etc) then pet collecting would be a little less interesting.

I don't know about anyone else but I love the friendly competition between the pet collectors in my guild (or realm via wowprogress) to see who can get the rarer pets first or get lucky with with the RNG pets. It makes it fun.

Here's a crazy example. I was in the BMAH bidding on a TCG pet, along with several other people. One guy's name I recognised from the wowprogress pet rating list and whilst discussing how much we thought the pet would go for he jokingly said to me, "you don't need that, you're already 4th on the server", showing that he knew me too. It struck me that there was this real sense of camaraderie and friendly competition between people who have never met before. I honestly don't believe that this wouldn't be so much the case if there wasn't some skill, patience and determination involved in pet collecting.
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Re: 5.2: are we suckers?

Postby Graven » March 15th, 2013, 1:53 pm

I also have to agree with the OP here. It's fine that they made them stupidly rare, but why in seven hells did they make them un-cageable so we can't even trade duplicates?

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